Are some soaps mislabeled "all natural" when they contain fragrance oils?

[merrysoap]

Morning all,

Beginner soaper here, not selling at this point but that is my goal eventually. I'll preface my question by saying that I realize this topic has the potential for lots of different opinions - I'm simply looking for different perspectives for my own knowledge and education. I've been practicing making both all natural soaps and soaps with synthetic ingredients and I am not here to judge one way or the other.

My primary intended audience once I start selling is the "all natural" crowd (I'm also into permaculture so those things kind of go together). I've been perusing some of the online stores (Etsy, Shopify, etc.) to get ideas about how "regular people" (i.e. not large professional soap operations) market their soaps to those types of groups.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell, there seem to be a lot of soapy products labeled "all natural" despite the fact that they contain fragrance oils, synthetic colorants, etc.

I know that there is some debate over certain ingredients...

(like sodium lactate - old but interesting article about its use in food here: https://www.pccmarkets.com/statements/org_sodium_lactate_120709/).

...but aren't all fragrance oils synthetic and thus NOT "all natural"?

I've seen many soaps labeled "all natural" with just "fragrance" noted in the ingredients list and no mention of using EOs anywhere in the product description. In fact, I've seen some that clearly list fragrance oil in the description but still claim all natural. From what I can tell from ingredients labeling requirements (in the US), it's acceptable to list "fragrance" in the ingredients list and there's no requirement to list out individual essential oils if you're using an EO blend... so maybe some of these soaps have EO blends rather than fragrance oils (although I would think if you're catering to the all natural crowd, you would want to sing from the mountaintops that you're using EOs instead of synthetic fragrances).

Anyway, for me personally, I will probably have both an all natural line that uses strictly EOs and natural colors without synthetic additives (for my permie friends) in addition to a smaller not 100% natural line (because I personally like playing around with colors and fragrances... and not all of my potential customers are as into permie stuff to want to spend more $ on an all natural bar).

What do you think? Has anyone else seen products that appear to be mislabeled as "all natural" despite containing synthetic fragrance oils or synthetic colorants?

 

[paradisi]

Well...if you want to be picky, no soap can really be labelled "all natural" because sodium hydroxide is not found in nature, nor is it refined from a raw source. It's an industrial chemical.

Most of the Indigo that soapers use is artificially produced, not from the plant.

There are some compounded scents made from isolates and so on, calling themselves natural fragrance oils.

"Fragrance" is the US' FDA preferred term for scent in a fragranced cosmetic including ones with only essential oils. So one can't necessarily conclude anything from that.

The debates can be endless.

And in the US there's no legal or industry definition of "natural" for cosmetics or soap, so it's almost a meaningless term here, more a marketing thing than a description.

 

[DeeAnna]

If you can point me toward a widely accepted, hopefully legal definition of "natural," then I can offer an opinion. Until then, "natural" means whatever it means to the person using the term. After years reading this forum, I've learned people's definitions of "natural" can vary wildly.

What I do know is "natural" a marketing phrase that is targeting the "no chemicals" audience. If you want to define the term pretty narrowly and use it that way, no problem there. But understand your narrow interpretation of "natural" won't necessarily distinguish your wares as being any different or more superior than products from other sellers of "natural" products.

In my experience, a lot of consumers don't read labels, don't want to think a lot about what they're buying, and don't want to wade through complicated explanations. They want to be romanced by a slick website and clever sound bites.

 

[merrysoap]

@DeeAnna and @paradisi , ha! Your two responses pretty much sum up what I was expecting.

Very good point about there being no widely accepted definition of the term "natural."

Sadly, even for things that are clearly defined and generally accepted and regulated, there can still be an immense amount of variation. The USDA definition of "organic" is a good example (how hydroponically grown produce is allowed to be classified as "organic" when it's not even grown in soil is beyond me... but that's a whole different can of worms).

Standing in the egg aisle at just about any grocery store in the US makes me want to rip my hair out. All natural? Cage free? Vegetarian fed (when chickens are natural omnivores)? Pasture raised? Organic? There are so many different labels, half of which aren't regulated at all and don't mean anything.

Perhaps my idea to have two separate lines is silly. I hope to do mostly direct sales to people I can develop a relationship with, so the actual labeling might not matter as much if I'm not trying to snag attention from such a wide audience online.

Alright, enough time down the rabbit hole in the soap world for today! Thanks for your input.

Until next time, happy soaping.

 

[AliOop]

In today's US market, there is probably a clearer dividing line between vegan and non-vegan soap buyers, rather than natural v. synthetic v. organic.

Best to do lots of market research to figure out what will sell to the folks who are willing to buy from you. Luckily that means making and sharing lots of soap!

 

[merrysoap]

In today's US market, there is probably a clearer dividing line between vegan and non-vegan soap buyers, rather than natural v. synthetic v. organic.

Best to do lots of market research to figure out what will sell to the folks who are willing to buy from you. Luckily that means making and sharing lots of soap!

@AliOop , I hadn't even thought of that, but you're probably right! Aside from a honey bar I've been practicing with, all of my other soaps would be considered vegan. I'll have to dig into that idea further!

 

[Shelley D]

Morning all,

Beginner soaper here, not selling at this point but that is my goal eventually. I'll preface my question by saying that I realize this topic has the potential for lots of different opinions - I'm simply looking for different perspectives for my own knowledge and education. I've been practicing making both all natural soaps and soaps with synthetic ingredients and I am not here to judge one way or the other.

My primary intended audience once I start selling is the "all natural" crowd (I'm also into permaculture so those things kind of go together). I've been perusing some of the online stores (Etsy, Shopify, etc.) to get ideas about how "regular people" (i.e. not large professional soap operations) market their soaps to those types of groups.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell, there seem to be a lot of soapy products labeled "all natural" despite the fact that they contain fragrance oils, synthetic colorants, etc.

I know that there is some debate over certain ingredients...

(like sodium lactate - old but interesting article about its use in food here: https://www.pccmarkets.com/statements/org_sodium_lactate_120709/).

...but aren't all fragrance oils synthetic and thus NOT "all natural"?

I've seen many soaps labeled "all natural" with just "fragrance" noted in the ingredients list and no mention of using EOs anywhere in the product description. In fact, I've seen some that clearly list fragrance oil in the description but still claim all natural. From what I can tell from ingredients labeling requirements (in the US), it's acceptable to list "fragrance" in the ingredients list and there's no requirement to list out individual essential oils if you're using an EO blend... so maybe some of these soaps have EO blends rather than fragrance oils (although I would think if you're catering to the all natural crowd, you would want to sing from the mountaintops that you're using EOs instead of synthetic fragrances).

Anyway, for me personally, I will probably have both an all natural line that uses strictly EOs and natural colors without synthetic additives (for my permie friends) in addition to a smaller not 100% natural line (because I personally like playing around with colors and fragrances... and not all of my potential customers are as into permie stuff to want to spend more $ on an all natural bar).

What do you think? Has anyone else seen products that appear to be mislabeled as "all natural" despite containing synthetic fragrance oils or synthetic colorants?

I would like to offer my perspective as a previous buyer of "natural" soaps. The frustration of trying to find one that wasn't overly drying to my skin and didn't contain FO was so overwhelming, it's what pushed me to making my own ~ but I did notice there seemed to be 2 types of sellers. The ones who just listed their ingredients and basically put it on you to buy a bar and see if it worked for you. Or, the sellers who understood there is a difference and there are people who live their lives by those differences.
The ones who understand take the time to separate their soap categories: soaps with FO and soaps with EO so people can find what they can use. And they were the ones I bought from.
I have my own opinions about what should be called natural soap and I'm not opening that can of worms again but I'm a non-FO type person, and really I prefer no fragrance in my soap. What I really need is soap that doesn't dry my skin or make if feel sticky in my super hard water environment so I make recipes that are very low cleansing and more conditioning for the skin ~ they feel like bath lotion
My hubby prefers Zany's No-slime Castile soap, which is ok for me too.
I toyed with the idea of making natural soaps w/o scents but rather focusing on different recipes for different skin types and water types ~ but my body won't allow me to be that active all the time so I just make soap for myself.
I hope you find your happy soaping zone!

 

[Becky1024]

I find soapmakers in my area will call their product natural if it is homemade, even if it is melt and pour in a neon color scented with fragrance oil. Mine are all cold or hot processed soaps with natural colors and essential oils. I just try my best to educate my customers, and if someone wants to buy a neon M&P instead so be it.

 

[AliOop]

@Shelley D as someone with lots of sensitivities, I resonate with and echo what you wrote. I did want to add that many folks with sensitivities also cannot use certain EOs, or any at all! Sadly, I am one of those people. Spicy EOs are the worst for me. It's not that I don't like the smell of them; they just give me terrible headaches or other bad symptoms.

I also become sensitized over time time even to EOs or FOs that start out being ok for me. After making a bunch of coconut-scented products for our Christmas bazaar, all my coconut FOs are now giving me all kinds of problems. This is terrible, because I love them! But they are now on the no-fly list for me.

I love what you said about buying from sellers who are very invested in helping you figure out which soaps will fit you as an individual. If I weren't making my own, that's what I would do. And that is what I do for the friends and family members who buy soaps from me, too.

 

[Mommawolfe]

Well...if you want to be picky, no soap can really be labelled "all natural" because sodium hydroxide is not found in nature, nor is it refined from a raw source. It's an industrial chemical.

Most of the Indigo that soapers use is artificially produced, not from the plant.

There are some compounded scents made from isolates and so on, calling themselves natural fragrance oils.

"Fragrance" is the US' FDA preferred term for scent in a fragranced cosmetic including ones with only essential oils. So one can't necessarily conclude anything from that.

The debates can be endless.

And in the US there's no legal or industry definition of "natural" for cosmetics or soap, so it's almost a meaningless term here, more a marketing thing than a description.

I agree with the lye aspect, however there is also ash lye...natural..ish, lol. I do not label any of my products as all natural. Wholesome would be a good word...? One cannot have soap without lye...melt and pour included.

 

[Shelley D]

@Shelley D as someone with lots of sensitivities, I resonate with and echo what you wrote. I did want to add that many folks with sensitivities also cannot use certain EOs, or any at all! Sadly, I am one of those people. Spicy EOs are the worst for me. It's not that I don't like the smell of them; they just give me terrible headaches or other bad symptoms.

I also become sensitized over time time even to EOs or FOs that start out being ok for me. After making a bunch of coconut-scented products for our Christmas bazaar, all my coconut FOs are now giving me all kinds of problems. This is terrible, because I love them! But they are now on the no-fly list for me.

I love what you said about buying from sellers who are very invested in helping you figure out which soaps will fit you as an individual. If I weren't making my own, that's what I would do. And that is what I do for the friends and family members who buy soaps from me, too.

I also have issues with certain EOs, like Lemongrass, which is sad because I love it so much! But it's a touch sensitivity, not a smell sensitivity so I can still make a room spray (and spray it when hubby isn't home!) But some people did list which EOs they used, which was helpful. It's just better making my own for sure! I have only made 2 or 3 with scents, the rest just smell like

 

[justsomeguy]

I toyed with the idea of making natural soaps w/o scents but rather focusing on different recipes for different skin types and water types

This is what I did. Five different unscented recipes. Focused on having the conditioning number at least twice the cleansing number. I have long winded conversations with people trying to figure out which should work best for them.

 

[merrysoap]

@Shelley D , @AliOop , @justsomeguy , and everyone who has offered their insight on this topic - you all are wonderful! Thank you so much for taking the time to offer your perspectives. I'm so glad to have found this community of folks willing to offer their varied experiences and knowledge. It was a very lonely soapy world for me before I found this community and I have already learned so much and become a better soaper thanks to my time here!

Some of my friends in the permaculture world are very sensitive skin types so I'm hoping to be able to create unscented, uncolored recipes that work for them. Can't remember if I mentioned in this thread but I really would like to focus on developing relationships with potential customers... and eventually be able to help them find or create a bar that is good for their skin and fits with their values.

I personally have played around with both FOs and EOs, natural and synthetic colors, lard and plant-based oils, etc. Now that I'm finding my groove, my personal bent is towards simple bars with plant-based oils (palm free) and natural colorants and EOs, but I know that's not everybody's jam. I'm fortunate to have skin that doesn't seem to care too much about particular recipes... I haven't created a bar yet that didn't feel good to me, but I think I'm in the minority there! I've even been able to use pretty much all of my bars on my face without having my skin getting dried out. My hubby seems to love my most basic, high-coconut oil (35%) recipe the most, which I find fascinating since he is prone to dry skin and he doesn't find it overly drying at all.

I've given away lots of bars to family and friends and have always requested (perhaps annoyingly) feedback.... since my skin is very nonchalant, I really want to know how each recipe feels to other people. @justsomeguy , I think it's great that you get to chat with your customers to help them figure out what would be best for them! #soapgoals!

I also have issues with certain EOs, like Lemongrass, which is sad because I love it so much! But it's a touch sensitivity, not a smell sensitivity so I can still make a room spray (and spray it when hubby isn't home!) But some people did list which EOs they used, which was helpful. It's just better making my own for sure! I have only made 2 or 3 with scents, the rest just smell like

Soap smells awesome! Glad you've been able to find what works best for you!

 

[DeeAnna]

...conditioning number at least twice the cleansing number....

The interesting thing is these "numbers" don't always tell the truth. In particular, "conditioning" property is especially misleading. A soap maker can tie themself into knots to achieve a particular "conditioning" number only to find the soap isn't all that "conditioning."

Part of this problem lies in the word "conditioning" -- it means fairly different things to different people. My opinion is this number is more related to the mildness or gentleness of the soap, and less about whether the soap can actually condition the skin.

Another part of the problem is that the people who decided how to calculate the "conditioning" number chose to not include the palmitic and stearic acid content in this calculation. I find this really frustrating because soap rich in these fatty acids really does tend to be milder and more soothing to the skin.

ANyways, the takeaway I've been getting from this particular discussion is "natural" is a meaningless buzzword. Those who have particular expectations will take the time to read the labels and talk to the maker -- they don't assume "all natural" means a given soap will meet their needs.

 

[justsomeguy]

since my skin is very nonchalant, I really want to know how each recipe feels to other people. @justsomeguy , I think it's great that you get to chat with your customers to help them figure out what would be best for them! #soapgoals!

Sometimes I talk to much. In my professional life I was that person who rarely spoke but got stuff done quick fast and In a hurry. I'm terrible with names. But every other detail sticks. And I really really really like it when customers come back and tell me how things worked out for them.

 

[Shelley D]

This is what I did. Five different unscented recipes. Focused on having the conditioning number at least twice the cleansing number. I have long winded conversations with people trying to figure out which should work best for them.

I hope that pays off for you in the long run ~ if people really understood how bad commercial soap products are, we soap makers wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for homemade soap! I have also noticed that a LOT of sellers are using the same basic ingredients nowadays: CO, PO or PKO, OO, SAO, and at least one of the butters, shea, cocoa or mango. And the ingredients are almost always in the same order so they might vary their percentages, but I'd be willing to bet they are just slightly different versions of the Holy Trinity recipe, altered to add the sweet almond oil and a butter. So, not very original and that recipe doesn't do much for me and my skin, I do know that for sure. I have learned my skin likes oat milk better than goat's milk in soap ~ go figure So if you are interested in working up gentle recipes, keep your options open ~ sometimes simple is best!

 

[justsomeguy]

I hope that pays off for you in the long run ~ if people really understood how bad commercial soap products are, we soap makers wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for homemade soap! I have also noticed that a LOT of sellers are using the same basic ingredients nowadays: CO, PO or PKO, OO, SAO, and at least one of the butters, shea, cocoa or mango. And the ingredients are almost always in the same order so they might vary their percentages, but I'd be willing to bet they are just slightly different versions of the Holy Trinity recipe, altered to add the sweet almond oil and a butter. So, not very original and that recipe doesn't do much for me and my skin, I do know that for sure. I have learned my skin likes oat milk better than goat's milk in soap ~ go figure So if you are interested in working up gentle recipes, keep your options open ~ sometimes simple is best!

My skin doesn't really care yet. My face loves castile. I make a Shea/cocoa/palm kernel/castor that I love. The pure coconut is a close third

 

[Shelley D]

My skin doesn't really care yet. My face loves castile. I make a Shea/cocoa/palm kernel/castor that I love. The pure coconut is a close third

I like OO + butters combo, I need rich and creamy! But I have a bunch of experimental soaps I need to use up before I make any more or the hubby might have a fit!

 

[BritS]

So, I'm not sure if you will find this helpful, but there are natural fragrance oils on the market. They will still be listed as "fragrance" in the ingredients, but the maker should know if the fragrance was made with all-natural ingredients or not.

 

[nedastar]

@Shelley D as someone with lots of sensitivities, I resonate with and echo what you wrote. I did want to add that many folks with sensitivities also cannot use certain EOs, or any at all! Sadly, I am one of those people. Spicy EOs are the worst for me. It's not that I don't like the smell of them; they just give me terrible headaches or other bad symptoms.

I also become sensitized over time time even to EOs or FOs that start out being ok for me. After making a bunch of coconut-scented products for our Christmas bazaar, all my coconut FOs are now giving me all kinds of problems. This is terrible, because I love them! But they are now on the no-fly list for me.

I love what you said about buying from sellers who are very invested in helping you figure out which soaps will fit you as an individual. If I weren't making my own, that's what I would do. And that is what I do for the friends and family members who buy soaps from me, too.

I was wondering about patchouli oil if this effective for sensitive soap?