Apple Cider Vinegar Soap

[new12soap]

First of all let me say that I detest making CP soap. It isn't my fault, CP started it and hates me right back. If it tells you a different story it is lying.

There was a thread here a while back about using ACV in soap and how you can't do it, and I was sure I had seen on another forum that someone did and it worked beautifully. I found the reference I remembered (no, I won't post a link as I think that would be bad form) and that person's math was very different than the estimates here. I decided to try it.

I took a very basic recipe, OO, CO, castor, 5% superfat, no additives no fragrance. I replaced all the water with regular ordinary supermarket brand ACV. It smelled bad when I mixed in the lye but otherwise behaved exactly like water.

I stirred in the lye solution and stickblended until trace (which happened in the as-expected time frame) and poured into individual silicone guest size molds. I didn't spritz with alcohol or cover them with anything, I have no idea if they gelled or not (more excellent arguments in favor of HP, no ash or partial gel).

They are in the molds looking remarkably like totally unremarkable soap. Now, I have no way of knowing how much lye was neutralized by the acv, and no way to test what the actual superfat is now, but it IS possible to make soap with acv.

I will leave it in the molds a few days, and report back from time to time on how the soap is doing if anyone is interested.

 

[Hazel]

Thanks for sharing the info. Who said it couldn't be used? I don't remember that thread but I might have missed it. I remember awhile back there was a discussion about it and the consensus was it could be used but why bother with it other than label appeal. Someone mentioned she used it in shampoo bars.

 

[lpstephy85]

Very interesting and can't wait to hear back on the results. So is the end result supposed to be lowering the pH of the soap?

 

[new12soap]

Could be I am mis-remembering, that happens!

I just wanted to see if I could

I am curious to see if it brings anything noticeably good to the soap

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's an edited snip of an answer I posted in a related thread earlier today:

...The short answer: A modest amount of an acidic ingredient will react with some of the lye. The net effect of this reaction will increase the superfat, but it will NOT reduce the pH of the finished soap. Citric acid in citrus juice ends up as sodium citrate. Lactic acid in yogurt makes sodium lactate. Acetic acid in vinegar makes sodium acetate. Etc.

As in all things, moderation is a good idea. If you add enough acid as was done in the Soaping 101 "make soap with lemons" video, there will not be enough lye left over to actually make soap. You'll end up with an ugly mixture of soap, fatty acid, unreacted fat, etc. In that case, yes, the pH of the "soap" will be reduced ... but you really don't have soap at that point....

 

[rainycityjen]

It doesn't make sense to me to add ACV to decrease the pH of soap. 1. As soap cures the pH should decrease to safe levels. 2. Soap is a basic salt. It needs to be basic to clean. (Acidic detergents clean but are corrosive.) I've heard of vinegar rinses to combat the insoluble buildup that CP shampoo bars produce, but not vinegar in soap itself, unless the soap is MP.

Vinegar or acetic acid neutralizes sodium hydroxide. 1 liter of distilled white vinegar has 50g of pure acetic acid in it, therefore will neutralize 33g of lye. I'm a pretend scientist so I'm not going to attempt to scale the reaction, but I'd assume the end result is you're neutralizing a small % of your total lye, thus possibly upping your superfat and/or adding some kind of undesirable byproduct. The creation of lyewater and basic/alkaline reaction of vinegar and NaOH are both heat-producing reactions so I'm not sure you'd be able to tell what will happen based on how your lye-water behaves.

Anyway I don't see the benefit of using ACV from a chemical perspective, just from a label-appeal perspective.

Edit: just saw DeeAnna's response - this makes sense.

 

[Hazel]

Could be I am mis-remembering, that happens!

I just wanted to see if I could

I am curious to see if it brings anything noticeably good to the soap

Probably not. There are a lot of contradictory posts. Someone finds something doesn't work while someone else finds it does work and they both post about it. It's just the wild & wacky world of soapmaking.

I understand about trying something to see if it will work. I'd read somewhere not to use eggnog in soap. I can't remember the "why" but I thought I'd try it anyway. It worked well except for one of the loaves overheated which I think was a combination of the FO and CPOP. (Experimented also on gelling versus not gelling. I can't just try one thing. :roll: ) The eggnog made for a lovely and conditioning soap but I wonder if there is a higher chance of DOS because of the eggnog. It's been 3 months and it will be interesting to see how long the soap holds up.

I'm curious to hear if ACV makes a difference, too.

 

[grayceworks]

I'm thinking it's not going to make a huge difference, but I'm not a chemist lol.

I do know that in the case of soap having a high PH, if you use it on hair, it raises the hair's cuticle and makes the hair shaft feel rougher and more frizzy. Especially curly hair. You get the same issue when washing hair with baking soda.

The ACV rinse AFTER washing is to help return the PH of the hair and scalp back to normal, which has the effect of smoothing the cuticle and reducing frizz and increasing shine. But that's not going to work if it's mixed into the soap, as it isn't reducing the PH.

Sooooo... my curiosity is piqued. (as usual! )

What other properties does vinegar, and specifically apple cider vinegar, have that might be beneficial, if we ignore anything to do with PH?

Also, I love HP also. Much more predictable!

 

[grayterisk]

I made ACV shampoo bars last night.

Here is the reason why I wanted to add the ACV directly to my shampoo: I love ACV, use it everyday for boo-boos, reducing buildup in shampoo, facial toners, acne treatment, cleaning, cooking, etc. I hated how every shampoo bar I have ever used had buildup, but our water is extremely HARD! I make my own laundry soap and it takes a lot of borax and washing soda to soften the water enough.
I went searching on the net for a recipe for ACV soap, but there were so many people who had negative reactions on the topic. Saying whats the point? How would ACV react? etc etc
Well, I mixed the lye directly into my organic, unfiltered ACV-lo and behold- all I got was a different smell. It reacts just like water.
now i'm no chemist, but it seems to me that white vinegar is a lot different from unfiltered vinegar that still contains the mother. Maybe the vinegar and lye are neutralized a certain amount-but the "mother" and benefits of the ACV still remain.
I used my bar in the shower as soon as I unmolded it- best shampoo bar ever! No residue or buildup and my hair emerged soft and silky-WITHOUT the use of ACV spray/rinse.
I say its worth it to at least try it. ACV is beneficial to skin and hair in a lot of ways.:-D