Any tips for changing lye concentration

[CreativeWeirdo]

Hello friends!

So, I've been using the same CP soap recipe (attached) for almost two years now. I'm very happy with it! I'm planning to experiment with it because... SCIENCE!!!

I've noticed some people on here talk about them changing/lowering their lye concentration to limit soda ash? Is this a thing? How much can I play with these variables? Is there much of a difference between using lye concentration, water as percentage of oil weight, and water : lye ratio?

Thanks in advance,
CW

 

[AliOop]

Actually you would want to RAISE your lye concentration (aka, lower your water) to combat soda ash.

I regularly soap at 40% lye concentration unless it is a super complicated design, or an accelerating fragrance. It definitely reduces ash for me, but it is not the complete solution for some of my naughtier, ashier soaps (lookin' at you, goat milk soap and charcoal soap ). No doubt it's my own fault for soaping pretty cool. But I digress...

Lye concentration and water:lye ratio are two ways of saying the exact same thing. Water as percent of oils, however, is a completely different setting that was originally developed for hot process soap. Some who have used it forever are quite happy with it, but you won't get consistent fluidity of your batter if you scale your recipe up or down.

My recommendation is to work with lye concentration or water:lye ratio. Pick the one that makes the most sense to your brain. For most people, that's going to be lye concentration because it is one number instead of two, and no pesky colon to trip you up. Also, it's easy to remember that as the lye concentration number goes up, the amount of water goes down.

HTH!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I regularly soap at 30% Lye concentration, and if I don't gel I do get soda ash. I like more water in my recipes as a way to help with fluidity for my designs, given that i have to keep the mixture fairly warm due to my choice of oils.

 

[Servant4Christ]

If you look at Elly's Everyday Soapmaking on YouTube, Elly has a very good video explaining this exact thing in a very straightforward easy to understand way. I found it incredibly helpful when I first began my own soapy journey. I have actually started playing with my lye concentration in some soaps to create an embossed look. I tend to stick to either a 33% concentration or 40% concentration for most soaps.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Water as percent of oils ... was originally developed for hot process soap...

This is a new tidbit for me. Can you elaborate, Ali?

I normally use 25% lye concentration (same as 3:1 water:lye ratio) for hot process. If you use "water as % of oils" setting, the lye concentration can vary widely depending on the fats in the recipe. And the less water-based liquid means less fluidity all other things being equal. This makes me wonder why "water as % of oils" is thought to be a useful concept for HP.

 

[AliOop]

This is a new tidbit for me. Can you elaborate, Ali?

I normally use 25% lye concentration (same as 3:1 water:lye ratio) for hot process. If you use "water as % of oils" setting, the lye concentration can vary widely depending on the fats in the recipe. And the less water-based liquid means less fluidity all other things being equal. This makes me wonder why "water as % of oils" is thought to be a useful concept for HP.

I will have to search for that article, which discussed the development of soap calculators in general. The gist was that water at 38% of oils typically results in a lye concentration from the mid- to high-20s, which was appropriate for the larger batches of long-cooked HP that was the norm at the time. Of course that doesn't work well for today's CP recipes, which are not cooked at all and are often much smaller batches.

 

[cmzaha]

Lkie KiwiMouse, I do not soap with 40% Lye Concentrations, but normal recipes just will not let me work efficiently since I use high tallow/lard combo in my non-vegan and high palm in my vegan. I normally use between 31-33% Lye concentration depending on which recipe I am using. I do gel all batches to slow down ash although I still find some batches still ash especially my lavender eo batches of soap.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

FWIW, when making a recipe for the first time, I recommend using the Default Setting on SoapCalc, i.e.,

Even a small 450 gram batch, after full cure, will tell you if you need to adjust to a different lye calculation and you can tweak it from there. I use many different lye calculations depending on what I'm making.

It's just my sense of things. I think the NaOH needs a sufficient amount of oxygen from the water to do its thing. If there isn't enough water in the lye solution, it will take the oxygen from the air which may result in soda ash. Not sure.

This thinking has served me well over the years. I've never experienced soda ash or DOS on my bars, HP or CP. But it may be that, to insure full gel, I insulate the batch with old blanket/towels as well and don't unwrap until the mold has completely cooled.

HTH

 

[Servant4Christ]

Actually you would want to RAISE your lye concentration (aka, lower your water) to combat soda ash.

I regularly soap at 40% lye concentration unless it is a super complicated design, or an accelerating fragrance. It definitely reduces ash for me, but it is not the complete solution for some of my naughtier, ashier soaps (lookin' at you, goat milk soap and charcoal soap ). No doubt it's my own fault for soaping pretty cool. But I digress...

Lye concentration and water:lye ratio are two ways of saying the exact same thing. Water as percent of oils, however, is a completely different setting that was originally developed for hot process soap. Some who have used it forever are quite happy with it, but you won't get consistent fluidity of your batter if you scale your recipe up or down.

My recommendation is to work with lye concentration or water:lye ratio. Pick the one that makes the most sense to your brain. For most people, that's going to be lye concentration because it is one number instead of two, and no pesky colon to trip you up. Also, it's easy to remember that as the lye concentration number goes up, the amount of water goes down.

HTH!

I keep thinking about this post and wondering why you get ash on your charcoal soaps? I haven't experienced ash on my charcoal soaps yet. I totally understand why ash would be hard to avoid in milk soap, though, since you'd likely want to avoid gel phase for those.

 

[AliOop]

I keep thinking about this post and wondering why you get ash on your charcoal soaps? I haven't experienced ash on my charcoal soaps yet. I totally understand why ash would be hard to avoid in milk soap, though, since you'd likely want to avoid gel phase for those.

Maybe it is recipe-dependent, but any time I use charcoal, I get LOTS of ash. It doesn't matter if I use it as an accent color, or make a solid charcoal soap - it ashes every time for me. It often looks blue rather than black or grey, too.

 

[Savage Daughter]

I keep thinking about this post and wondering why you get ash on your charcoal soaps? I haven't experienced ash on my charcoal soaps yet. I totally understand why ash would be hard to avoid in milk soap, though, since you'd likely want to avoid gel phase for those.

I am surprised to hear a lot of this. First I've heard of this issue with milk soaps, actually.

I make goats milk & coconut milk soaps yet have never experienced ash.

I experience no ash with any of my soaps, in fact, using a 2.4:1 water to lye ratio, milk or not.

I always insulate with lots of towels, blankets. I always gel. I always cover with the wooden lids of my slab molds. I often kick off the gelling process using an electric blanket I have specifically for that purpose, to ensure gelling.

But I also often unwrap my soap slabs before completely cool, and often unmold before completely cool, removing my slab mold liner as well before completely cool, then allow to cool somewhat more while exposed to the air before cutting.

I don't use rosemary extract like @Zany_in_CO in any of my soaps but yet have never experienced orange spots either.

I have never followed the default settings on any soap making calculator.

These are a LOT of things which I DON'T do which people recommend, yet still no problems with ash, or other issues.

 

[lucycat]

Besides ash issues, experimenting with lye concentration will provide you new information that can be helpful for your soaps. A higher lye concentration cut back any overheating in my goatmilk soaps. It also made me aware that I like a lower concentration for my confetti soaps since more water will make the mold hotter and I feel more confident that the confetti is sticking. A higher lye concentration makes my bars harder faster which I like for a few formulations that were not rock hard at cure.

You don't have to jump from 33% to 40% to see the difference either. Just a change from 33% to 35% lye concentration will show some differences. I think learning how lye concentration affects your soaps adds another tool to your soap toolbox.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I experience no ash with any of my soaps

Same here.
In an effort to narrow down why we don't experience ash or DOS vs. so many who do, let's compare our process.

using a 2.4:1 water to lye ratio,

my water to lye ratio varies depending on the FAs used. From "full water" to 1.7:1 for ZNSC.

always insulate with lots of towels, blankets

Same here. Except for GM soap and other heaters.

don't use rosemary extract

I always use ROE and Vitamin E.

always gel.

Almost always.

always cover with the wooden lids of my slab molds

Always

kick off the gelling process using an electric blanket

Never.

unwrap my soap slabs before completely cool

Never.

removing my slab mold liner as well

I also line my wooden slab molds, including laying down a top piece before adding the lid.

From the above, we can conclude that
- water to lye ratio doesn't matter.
- using ROE doesn't matter
- electric blanket doesn't matter
- unmolding whether still warm or completely cool doesn't matter.

I believe we can also conclude that using a wooden slab mold with a lid, and lining that mold, doesn't matter either because I've used everything from a milk carton, to individual travel soap cases, a Pringles can, etc. to silicone loaf molds & multiple individual cavity molds without incident.

We can also conclude that climate/ humidity doesn't matter. I live in a dry climate. I believe QQ is near the ocean in a normal to humid climate.

We both insulate, gel and cover the soap. So, what's left?

TEMPS;
For batches high in hard oils, 120-135°F
For batches high in liquid oils, 100-120°F
For milk soaps and other "heaters" - I soap cool. I heat my oils until melted completely and clear. Allow to cool to room temp over night. I make the lye solution the night before and add it straight from the fridge the next morning.

WATER:
I use tap water. Denver's water is sourced from 100 percent surface water that comes from rivers, streams and reservoirs fed by high-quality mountain snow. It is classified as soft to moderately hard.

What else?

 

[Savage Daughter]

I also line my wooden slab molds, including laying down a top piece before adding the lid.

I never lay anything on top of my soap once poured, but do spray with alcohol after the soap has sit in its mold for about 5 minutes and do use the wooden lid every time. I allow the alcohol to evaporate over the period of a few minutes, mist thoroughly one more time, allow to evaporate again & then cover, insulate, put away to 'bake'

I believe we can also conclude that using a wooden slab mold with a lid, and lining that mold, doesn't matter either because I've used everything from a milk carton, to individual travel soap cases, a Pringles can, etc. to silicone loaf molds & multiple individual cavity molds without incident.

I haven't experienced ash when using silicone molds or cavity molds either. Not once. Not with my cylindrical molds either, although only a minimal amount of the soap batter is exposed to air in that. I just cover that with a small piece of reusable plastic that attaches to the mold but doesn't actually touch the soap. Doesn't happen in loaf molds either.

We can also conclude that climate/ humidity doesn't matter. I live in a dry climate. I believe QQ is near the ocean in a normal to humid climate.

Yes, we are often quite humid here, but also very dry during the summer. Spring / fall / winter very humid. Things vary in those terms, yet no ash. I never used to get ash when I started soaping in the 90s either, come to think of it. Not once.

We both insulate, gel and cover the soap. So, what's left?

TEMPS;
For batches high in hard oils, 120-135°F
For batches high in liquid oils, 100-120°F
For milk soaps and other "heaters" - I soap cool. I heat my oils until melted completely and clear. Allow to cool to room temp over night. I make the lye solution the night before and add it straight from the fridge the next morning.

I soap at room temperature 95% of the time, whether or not I'm using milks and regardless of the oils / butters I'm using. The only times I don't soap at room temp are when I have melted my oils / butters the same day & am not wanting to wait as long, usually with smaller test batches of 2kg or under. But I still am around 85-90º or so even then.

I often allow my oils / butters to sit overnight once melted like you do (I usually 'masterbatch' my oils / butters in specific quantities for various sized batches, reusing my honey buckets).

I usually make my lye solution the day I am making soap, but not always. Either way, I never get scum on my lye solution, even when it sits overnight. I do the same as you: melt my oils & butters til clear, and all together on one big pot, on direct stove heat (gas), low temperature.

I never, ever microwave. Anything, for that matter. Just....

I always add sugar or honey, as well as salt - to every batch - regardless of whether or not it's a milk soap. I dissolve these in my distilled water before adding lye.

I switched from pomace olive oil to extra virgin this year as well. No ash either way.

WATER:
I use tap water. Denver's water is sourced from 100 percent surface water that comes from rivers, streams and reservoirs fed by high-quality mountain snow. It is classified as soft to moderately hard.

I use distilled water because I'm on a well & mineral content fluctuates drastically depending on how long we go without rain. Would love to try some Colorado water! For soap & otherwise!

What else?

Do you microwave @Zany_in_CO ??

 

[Shelley D]

The comparisons always fascinate me

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Do you microwave @Zany_in_CO ??

Yes. To melt FAs and to reheat if necessary. I have a vintage 8-cup Pyrex that works well for transparent soaps and for 30-60 oz. batches that is the norm these days. When making 4 batches at a time, I melt in a stainless steel pot to divide into 4 buckets ready to soap when needed. I have also hot-processed soap in the microwave. Just to try that. Too fiddly for regular use.

Get this... I also have a vintage 2-cup and 4-cup Pyrex to rebatch soap shreds and soap slivers that I gather over time. Frugal is my middle name.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I usually make my lye solution the day I am making soap, but not always.

Ditto.

I never, ever microwave. Anything, for that matter. Just....

I have a daughter like that! Old fashioned to the the core. So far I haven't experienced any negative effects from microwave use -- altho I do not stand close to it while using it and always wear my tinfoil hat! (Just kidding!)

I switched from pomace olive oil to extra virgin this year as well.

I use highly regarded Pomace in a 35 lb cubitainer from Soapers Choice and Kirkland Pure Olive Oil from Costco. To me, EVOO is too expensive to add to my profit margin PLUS more likely to be adulterated according to all the reports I've read over the years since I lost 6 months of sales due to that fact.

Would love to try some Colorado water! For soap & otherwise!

It is good! Watch for award-winning Eldorado Springs bottled water from Colorado.

 

[ewhitake]

New soaper reading through old threads here. Fascinating comparison. The only thing that's not accounted for in this side-by-side comparison is the soap maker. So I guess the "moral of the story" is getting DOS is up to the gods. There is no perfect environment, recipe, or methodology. But I did get a lot of learnings, nonetheless.

 

[cmzaha]

New soaper reading through old threads here. Fascinating comparison. The only thing that's not accounted for in this side-by-side comparison is the soap maker. So I guess the "moral of the story" is getting DOS is up to the gods. There is no perfect environment, recipe, or methodology. But I did get a lot of learnings, nonetheless.

Using Chelators such as EDTA or Sodium Gluconate can help stop issues with Dos. I regularly soap or did before retiring from selling with a 33% Lye Concentration, soaped cool and had to force gel with my formula.

 

[AliOop]

New soaper reading through old threads here. Fascinating comparison. The only thing that's not accounted for in this side-by-side comparison is the soap maker. So I guess the "moral of the story" is getting DOS is up to the gods. There is no perfect environment, recipe, or methodology. But I did get a lot of learnings, nonetheless.

You can take many of the previous posts about soda ash with a grain of salt. For instance, it is not accurate to say that lye concentration, covering, and gelling don’t ever matter. All of those can and do make a huge difference for me, because I tend to soap with cool ingredients, and I only blend to emulsion.

Those who posted/boasted about never getting soda ash may be doing any of the following, alone or in combination:

~soaping at a higher temperature
~blending to a thicker trace
~making HP instead of CP
~using different recipes than someone who is getting ash
~soaping in a drier climate
~soaping with a higher lye concentration
~soaping at a higher elevation

All of those things affect whether ash may or may not develop. Remember, making soap involves a series of chemical reactions, so each change of conditions and processes can have an effect on any of the chemical reactions involved. That's why it is disingenuous for any soaper to claim that certain techniques “don’t matter” when it comes to preventing ash.

Maybe it doesn't matter for their recipe, or under their conditions - but it could and often does matter to someone else. Many of the other suggestions (higher lye concentration, covering, spraying with alcohol, gelling) can and absolutely do help those of us who do tend to get ash on our soaps because we soap cool and only blend to emulsion.