An easy way to rebatch?

[Quanta]

Hello everyone. I looked for info on this, or tried, but I don't know what search terms to use and the first couple pages of this beginners area didn't have a thread on it already.

My mother has decided that she wants to learn how to make soap to sell. I have been sucked into this project and will be helping her. We are still in research mode but have almost all supplies already except lye. We have some fragrances and essential oils that were purchased for lotion bars so they are skin safe but not necessarily intended for CP soap.

I have been researching potential problems and have come to the conclusion that adding certain types of fragrance and additives is problematic, to say the least. My question is, would making plain soap with the intention of rebatching in order to add fragrance solve some of the issues typically associated with fragrance oils? If so, am I looking for oils that are ok to use for MP soap?

So that leads to my main question. Assuming that rebatching is the solution, I want to make it easier. I have researched that and it looks messy, difficult, and time consuming to grate soap. So, does soap that is curing have to be in a solid block to properly cure? My idea is this: make a batch of plain soap without additives and not superfatted very much (to allow customization of moisturizing ingredients later). An exception might be to add a hardener to make it easier to release from silicone. Then, spread the soap out in a thin layer on a large sheet of silicone on top of plywood. Once it has finished saponifying/curing/drying, peel it off and it will break up into little chips. Then put the chips in the double boiler with whatever kind of milk we want in the soap, and when it's melted we add our moisturizing fats/oils, fragrance/essential oils, exfoliating ingredients, etc.. So we'd have a MP base we made ourselves, and could customize from there.

(Side question: is there a benefit to using milk during water phase as opposed to during rebatching?)

Will the silicone sheet trick work? Or do I need to let it cure in block form and figure out how to grate large amounts of soap? Once we get it all figured out we'll be making larger batches to sell and I don't want to grate that much soap by hand, if we end up rebatching a lot of what we make.

Or am I overthinking it all and there's a much simpler solution? I know there are FOs and EOs that do fine in the CP method, but I don't want to limit ourselves to just those.

 

[amd]

My question is, would making plain soap with the intention of rebatching in order to add fragrance solve some of the issues typically associated with fragrance oils?

I would not plan to make soap this way. If your intention is to sell, you will find it to be less labor to just make soap as intended to use.

If so, am I looking for oils that are ok to use for MP soap?

No, you would still want to use fragrances that are pH stable. Even rebatched soap will still have a higher pH than MP soap.

Or am I overthinking it all and there's a much simpler solution? I know there are FOs and EOs that do fine in the CP method, but I don't want to limit ourselves to just those.

Short story... yes, you're overthinking it. With experience you'll learn how to handle difficult FO's, or how to handle when things go wrong. Rebatch should be a last resort to save a soap, and not a plan for manufacturing.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...So, does soap that is curing have to be in a solid block to properly cure? ..."

No, soap doesn't have to be in a block to cure. For example, BrambleBerry sells "noodles" that people use for rebatching. I think many use the noodles as a low-stress way of learning a bit about soap making.

I'm in agreement with Amd. I view rebatching more as a technique for solving for certain types of problems, not as a normal production method.

Given the priorities you list in your first post, you may want to look into making soap with a Hot Processing (HP) method. That offers the benefits of rebatching without the hassle of having to remelt soap.

 

[earlene]

Welcome to the Forum, Quanta and Quanta's Mom.

Hello everyone. I looked for info on this, or tried, but I don't know what search terms to use and the first couple pages of this beginners area didn't have a thread on it already.

My mother has decided that she wants to learn how to make soap to sell. I have been sucked into this project and will be helping her. We are still in research mode but have almost all supplies already except lye. We have some fragrances and essential oils that were purchased for lotion bars so they are skin safe but not necessarily intended for CP soap.

I have been researching potential problems and have come to the conclusion that adding certain types of fragrance and additives is problematic, to say the least. My question is, would making plain soap with the intention of rebatching in order to add fragrance solve some of the issues typically associated with fragrance oils? If so, am I looking for oils that are ok to use for MP soap?

So that leads to my main question. Assuming that rebatching is the solution, I want to make it easier. I have researched that and it looks messy, difficult, and time consuming to grate soap. So, does soap that is curing have to be in a solid block to properly cure? My idea is this: make a batch of plain soap without additives and not superfatted very much (to allow customization of moisturizing ingredients later). An exception might be to add a hardener to make it easier to release from silicone. Then, spread the soap out in a thin layer on a large sheet of silicone on top of plywood. Once it has finished saponifying/curing/drying, peel it off and it will break up into little chips. Then put the chips in the double boiler with whatever kind of milk we want in the soap, and when it's melted we add our moisturizing fats/oils, fragrance/essential oils, exfoliating ingredients, etc.. So we'd have a MP base we made ourselves, and could customize from there.

(Side question: is there a benefit to using milk during water phase as opposed to during rebatching?)

Will the silicone sheet trick work? Or do I need to let it cure in block form and figure out how to grate large amounts of soap? Once we get it all figured out we'll be making larger batches to sell and I don't want to grate that much soap by hand, if we end up rebatching a lot of what we make.

Or am I overthinking it all and there's a much simpler solution? I know there are FOs and EOs that do fine in the CP method, but I don't want to limit ourselves to just those.

To clarify, are you and your mother planning on making soap with Melt & Pour Bases? Or are you planning to make soap with lye? Well, I think that you saying that you have everything except the lye, means you are planning on making lye soap. But you ask some questions about oils for use in MP soap, so I'm a little unsure of your intent. Or maybe I am misreading.

Also you mention 'water phase' which I think is more commonly used when talking about making cosmetics, not in making CP soap, so I am not sure of your meaning there as well.

As to your questions about curing, no you do not want your soap to cure as big blocks of soap. You want to cut them to size (whatever size of bars you like) and cure them in that size. A block would potentially be much harder to cut after cure (depending on your recipe) and would probably have a softer middle making your inside bars of soap softer than the end bars of soap (depending on when you cut.)

I also found that re-batching is a lot more work than making the initial soap, so it's not my preferred method either. It was part of my learning process, but I prefer to avoid it if I can. However, if you choose to go that route, you can buy a Salad Shooter or other food grinding implement to use for grinding the soap into smaller bits. But I would rather just use trimmings from soap I clean up (from beveling the edges, for example) as confetti soap, thus having no waste. Confetti soap is made by mixing new soap batter with the little soap bits from soap (often grated, or just the trimmings).

Regarding learning to make soap so you can start a business:
You need to learn to make the soap first, perfecting your techniques, and testing your soap over the course of it's life, paying close attention to performance as a soap, it's quality, and watch for possible problems over the life of the soap. Most here recommend making soap for at least a year before you sell. IMO a year isn't a long enough, but I do agree that is a good minimum of time to get to know the process and the quality of soap that you are capable of making. But in that year, you need to make a lot of soap to get to the point where you can be sure your recipe(s) is/are good reliable quality recipes. And there is so much more to running a soap business than just making soap, as I am sure you will hear and read more about as time goes on.

 

[Bladesmith]

I was just gonna say, sounds like you should consider hot process. No issues there with fragrance oils speeding things up. And you can add all your additives (and fragrance) after the soap has cooked.

 

[shunt2011]

Hi and welcome!!! You are certainly overthinking the process. I highly recommend you watch some youtube from soaping101. You need to use FO's formulated specifically for CP soap though they would be okay for MP but not reversed. Take time to learn either CP or HP and make some soap. Before even thinking about selling you need to make a good soap and need to know how it will be over time 6-12 months. Things go wrong. DOS (dreaded orange spot) rancidity happens, colors morph, fragrances fade or disappear. It's also not a cheap hobby nor business. Read the most 10 most recent pages in the beginners section.

 

[Quanta]

I would not plan to make soap this way. If your intention is to sell, you will find it to be less labor to just make soap as intended to use.

I suspected as much, but was thinking I could make rebatching less labor intensive. My goal was to take a week or whatever and basically just make lots of plain soap flakes that we'd use as a sort of homemade MP soap in smaller batches after they cure. To me, buying real MP soap feels like cheating somehow but it is a lot easier. I was trying to combine the best of both worlds, so to speak.

No, you would still want to use fragrances that are pH stable. Even rebatched soap will still have a higher pH than MP soap.

Ahhh, so it's the pH, not the saponification process, that kills some FOs. This is helpful information. Thanks.

Short story... yes, you're overthinking it. With experience you'll learn how to handle difficult FO's, or how to handle when things go wrong. Rebatch should be a last resort to save a soap, and not a plan for manufacturing.

LOL, "Overthinking" is my middle name. I can't help it.

"...So, does soap that is curing have to be in a solid block to properly cure? ..."

No, soap doesn't have to be in a block to cure. For example, BrambleBerry sells "noodles" that people use for rebatching. I think many use the noodles as a low-stress way of learning a bit about soap making.

I haven't really looked at BrambleBerry yet, I've been buying lotion making supplies at Wholesale Supplies Plus for years now but am only just getting into soap. I'll have to check them out.

Given the priorities you list in your first post, you may want to look into making soap with a Hot Processing (HP) method. That offers the benefits of rebatching without the hassle of having to remelt soap.

I'll have to look into that, thanks for the tip.

Welcome to the Forum, Quanta and Quanta's Mom.

Thanks! I'm glad I found this place.

To clarify, are you and your mother planning on making soap with Melt & Pour Bases? Or are you planning to make soap with lye? Well, I think that you saying that you have everything except the lye, means you are planning on making lye soap. But you ask some questions about oils for use in MP soap, so I'm a little unsure of your intent. Or maybe I am misreading.

Basically, I was wondering if rebatching would allow me to use MP-safe oils in CP soap, but amd cleared that up for me.

Also you mention 'water phase' which I think is more commonly used when talking about making cosmetics, not in making CP soap, so I am not sure of your meaning there as well.

You're right. I'm more familiar with terminology for stuff other than soap. Basically what I meant was, the part where you add lye and things to the water portion. (Unless you're supposed to mix the milk into the oils before adding the water/lye mixture, but I don't know how that would work.) My mother wants to make goat's milk soap, and since you can use milk as your liquid when rebatching, I figured we could add it that way. But I wanted to know if there was a benefit to adding it at the beginning, instead of during rebatching. Unless I'm completely confused as to what even goes into a bar of goat's milk soap, and how it goes in, and when... I think you can get powdered goat's milk, so would that be easier? Would it be mixed into the oils? But then my mother was also talking about getting actual goats, so we'd be using fresh liquid milk and I don't know how to make powdered milk.

As to your questions about curing, no you do not want your soap to cure as big blocks of soap. You want to cut them to size (whatever size of bars you like) and cure them in that size. A block would potentially be much harder to cut after cure (depending on your recipe) and would probably have a softer middle making your inside bars of soap softer than the end bars of soap (depending on when you cut.)

Oh, I spent all day yesterday reading about new soapmakers mistakes, and one was not cutting at the right stage. What I'm getting at is, can soap even cure properly if it's spread out in a thin sheet, or does it need to have some bulk to it, such as a normal thick bar of soap? I see how I worded that in a confusing way, so I apologize.

I also found that re-batching is a lot more work than making the initial soap, so it's not my preferred method either. It was part of my learning process, but I prefer to avoid it if I can. However, if you choose to go that route, you can buy a Salad Shooter or other food grinding implement to use for grinding the soap into smaller bits. But I would rather just use trimmings from soap I clean up (from beveling the edges, for example) as confetti soap, thus having no waste. Confetti soap is made by mixing new soap batter with the little soap bits from soap (often grated, or just the trimmings).

I've read horror stories of people who destroyed food processors trying to rebatch soap. That's one reason I was trying to avoid grating altogether. It's not something I want to do by hand either, even for a little batch of soap for personal use. That's why I was thinking I could make the initial batch into flakes or chips instead of bars, and then rebatch that.

Regarding learning to make soap so you can start a business:
You need to learn to make the soap first, perfecting your techniques, and testing your soap over the course of it's life, paying close attention to performance as a soap, it's quality, and watch for possible problems over the life of the soap. Most here recommend making soap for at least a year before you sell. IMO a year isn't a long enough, but I do agree that is a good minimum of time to get to know the process and the quality of soap that you are capable of making. But in that year, you need to make a lot of soap to get to the point where you can be sure your recipe(s) is/are good reliable quality recipes. And there is so much more to running a soap business than just making soap, as I am sure you will hear and read more about as time goes on.

Personally, I think one year is unrealistically optimistic. I was planning on at least two years. And I'm going to take a lot of notes, and write down everything we do, especially if we tweak recipes. Even in two years, only our very first few batches will be able to be tested for long term shelf stability. Even after two years I don't count on really being able to sell more than a handful of bars at craft shows until we've been at it for 4-5 years or more. I know about the importance of marketing and all that, I just want to make sure I have something worth marketing first.

I was just gonna say, sounds like you should consider hot process. No issues there with fragrance oils speeding things up. And you can add all your additives (and fragrance) after the soap has cooked.

I'm going to look this up and see what the pros and cons are. This might work for us.

Hi and welcome!!!

Thanks!

You are certainly overthinking the process. I highly recommend you watch some youtube from soaping101.

Thanks. I found their channel on YouTube. I'm going to watch all 177 videos! I just saw that they have one on how to do brush embroidery to decorate soap. That is how I decorated my wedding cake so I've done it before, just not with soap. I'm going to have to try that one.

You need to use FO's formulated specifically for CP soap though they would be okay for MP but not reversed.

I have been reading reviews on the FOs I'd like to try. Some of the ones I really want have a lot of reviewers saying the scent doesn't stick in CP soap, which is disappointing. I can always make candles and lotion with those though, so I can still enjoy them but yeah, I always, always read reviews before purchasing anything to make sure it works the way I want it to.

Take time to learn either CP or HP and make some soap. Before even thinking about selling you need to make a good soap and need to know how it will be over time 6-12 months.

Looks like I'll be making some CP and HP to see what works best for us. At first, friends and family will be our testers so we know how people like it and what we need to change. I don't plan on selling for quite some time.

Things go wrong. DOS (dreaded orange spot) rancidity happens, colors morph, fragrances fade or disappear. It's also not a cheap hobby nor business. Read the most 10 most recent pages in the beginners section.

I did spend a lot of time yesterday reading the beginners section, looking for an answer to my question but I have to say, the picture of the volcano in the top stickied thread had me wondering what I'd gotten myself into! Those pictures are very helpful though.

Thanks everyone for your help! Looks like I have a lot of experimenting to do.

 

[DeeAnna]

Rebatching requires you to melt the soap, so the soap goes from a crystalline solid back to a liquid. The crystalline structure is destroyed and has to reform in a subsequent cure.

Honestly, there isn't any reason to cure a soap if your plans are to then rebatch it.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hi @Quanta and welcome!

I'd like to compliment you on your first post. I found it to be very well thought out and clearly understood what you were going for. As an over-thinker myself, it made complete sense to me! You've received excellent advice from all the above. The only thing I would add is that you start with a few "Tried and True" CP recipes that you can find in the Beginner's Forum, Beginner's Learn to Soap Online.

Here's a link to a rebatch I did recently that will give you some Idea what you're in for if you decide to go that route. I used a Salad Shooter for this one, but a "dedicated" food processor that I picked up at a garage sale works well too. No need to wait for cure BUT the soap needs to be sufficiently dry to grate up easily. If it's sticky, it gums up whatever you use to grate it up, even a hand-grater aka "nuckle-grater". LOL

Within that post, please watch for a highlighted phrase that takes you to the CP Oven Rebatch method I used, also the Crockpot rebatch I rarely use.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress in the coming year!

HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Almost forgot... I made goat milk soap for a wholesale customer for years who only sold GM soap, lotion and other Bath & Body products related to goats. Here's a link to where I share my method for making GM Soap. Hint: No need to buy goats!

Zany's Method for Making Goat Milk Soaps

 

[Quanta]

Rebatching requires you to melt the soap, so the soap goes from a crystalline solid back to a liquid. The crystalline structure is destroyed and has to reform in a subsequent cure.

Honestly, there isn't any reason to cure a soap if your plans are to then rebatch it.

Ok, that makes sense.

Hi @Quanta and welcome!

I'd like to compliment you on your first post. I found it to be very well thought out and clearly understood what you were going for. As an over-thinker myself, it made complete sense to me!

Awesome, I think we'll get along just fine!

You've received excellent advice from all the above. The only thing I would add is that you start with a few "Tried and True" CP recipes that you can find in the Beginner's Forum, Beginner's Learn to Soap Online.

I'm sharing this with my mother. She wants to start out with some more complicated recipes with all kinds of additives. She's the type who thinks that if she wants to pick up a new hobby or skill and isn't perfect at it on the first try, then she's failed. I have a feeling I'm going to be holding her hand a lot through this, and probably dragging her along at first!

Here's a link to a rebatch I did recently that will give you some Idea what you're in for if you decide to go that route. I used a Salad Shooter for this one, but a "dedicated" food processor that I picked up at a garage sale works well too. No need to wait for cure BUT the soap needs to be sufficiently dry to grate up easily. If it's sticky, it gums up whatever you use to grate it up, even a hand-grater aka "nuckle-grater". LOL

This explains why I keep seeing people grate gummy soap for rebatching. They aren't waiting long enough for it to dry.
I also didn't realize that the texture of the finished soap would be so different after rebatching.

Within that post, please watch for a highlighted phrase that takes you to the CP Oven Rebatch method I used, also the Crockpot rebatch I rarely use.

This is helpful, thanks. I'll probably need to know how to do this anyway, since I'll probably have a few failed batches that can be salvaged.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress in the coming year!

Me too, lol!

Almost forgot... I made goat milk soap for a wholesale customer for years who only sold GM soap, lotion and other Bath & Body products related to goats. Here's a link to where I share my method for making GM Soap. Hint: No need to buy goats!

Zany's Method for Making Goat Milk Soaps

This is helpful, too. Thanks!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

You're welcome.

I'm sharing this with my mother. She wants to start out with some more complicated recipes with all kinds of additives. She's the type who thinks that if she wants to pick up a new hobby or skill and isn't perfect at it on the first try, then she's failed.

Oh dear. This thread should be required reading to share with your mom:
What advice would you give to your beginning soaping self?

The really neat thing is, once you find a basic formula/recipe that you both like, you can do just about anything with it in terms of fragrance, colorants, and additives -- the options are endless. There are SO many ways to make your soap distinctive and personal.

 

[Quanta]

So I found this:
Apparently, there is a way to make your own MP soap that is actually, truly MP soap. I have so much to learn about all this.