Alternative oils advice

[soaplassie]

Hi
I’m new to soap making having recently been on a course near me. I live in the uk. We made a couple of soap blocks from the same basic recipe and they turned out fine. The ingredients we used are listed below.

Solid oils:
Rapeseed oil 13%
Coconut oil 32%

Liquid oils:
Olive oil 35%
Sunflower oil 12%
Caster oil 8%

With a 33% lye concentration and 4% essential oil this was enough to fill a 440g plastic food tray.

I have 2 questions:
While it was a lovely bar of soap it did go down quite quickly. The hardness was 33 ( range 29-54) according to soapcalc.net. What other oil combinations could I use to get it to last a bit longer?

We used solid rapeseed oil but I have been unable to source this and had no joy from the course organisers about where I can get hold of more. I have used liquid rapeseed oil instead in another batch which seemed to work ok. What else could I use? I would welcome any oil combinations others feel work well.

Many thanks

 

[shunt2011]

Hello and welcome! You're using a higher amount of CO and CO is pretty soluble in soap. Also, having mostly liquid oils as well. You can make a harder, longer lasting bar by using palm, tallow or lard. Some use soy wax.

How old is your soap? A good cure will make it last longer too. Letting it dry between uses well drained is important at well.

 

[soaplassie]

Hi
Thanks for your reply. I have been letting it cure for 4-6 weeks. Thanks for the storing in between uses advice.

I’m a vegetarian so lard and tallow are not options for me. I’m also not keen on using palm oil. Could you recommend other oils with a lower CO. I’m not sure what you mean by CO?

 

[Dawni]

Hi
Thanks for your reply. I have been letting it cure for 4-6 weeks. Thanks for the storing in between uses advice.

I’m a vegetarian so lard and tallow are not options for me. I’m also not keen on using palm oil. Could you recommend other oils with a lower CO. I’m not sure what you mean by CO?

She meant coconut oil

A purely coconut oil soap for example will finish faster than one with less of it.

I use cocoa butter and/or shea butter and/or mango butter to harden my vegan soaps. Several members here use pure soy wax.

Also, hardness is not longevity. Give this page, and the whole site a read, tons of info.

 

[gloopygloop]

It would be better to lower your CO as already said it does dissolve faster and it is also more drying, a recommendation is no more that 20%. You can use waxes to harden, Bees wax at no more than 2% , more will risk some loss of lather. Stearic acid or stearic wax will also harden and make a dense lather but this does usually come from Palm, and as mentioned Soy wax but there is some controversy regarding that also, the addition of salt in your water will help the harden. I have found in the past that too high on Sunflower oil gave me DOS, there is evidently a high oleic version which does not cause that problem but here in the UK I have not seen it or I dont know what it is called and therefore am missing it. Cocoa butter as mentioned along with Shea Butter are also good for hardness, emollience and creaminess.

 

[ParisYank]

Hi @soaplassie thank you for your question about soap longevity. I am even a newer newbee than you. Currently I am an 'armchair' soap maker. Over the last few days I have struggled with my first recipe especially increasing the longevity factor. It is not easy to optimize especially when avoiding animal fats and palm oil as I, like you prefer. This thread interests me and I will follow.

By the way I also found the abbreviations difficult. For future beginners, I will not abbreviate.

Also, take a look at an alternative to soapcalc.net --> soapmakingfriend.com that is almost identical but has added features such as longevity calculations and batch resizing (mold volume and batch sized to fit). The site also has an inventory management and social / recipe sharing functions that I like.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hi there,

I use soy wax at 20% in my recipes - as I too make vegan and palm-free soap. I initially used cocoa butter and shea butter as my hard oils (which contribute to longevity), but they are very expensive. I still include Shea at 10% in my recipes.

To abbreviate @DeeAnna's advice - hardness does not equal longevity. A good estimate for longevity is to total up your Palmitic and Stearic acid scores (in your chosen lye calculator) and subtract from that the total of your Lauric and Myristic. Mine are usually around 22 (and I still think they wear down quickly - so it's not a sure fire recipe for success, but I tend to use mine after only a 2 - 3 month cure so they might be better if left longer before using).

It's the Palmitic and Stearic that will help with bar longevity - and typically these come from animal fats or palm. I use soy wax because it is high in Stearic. Because of my lack on animal fat and palm, my recipes are usually fairly low in Palmitic.

This UK site sells soy wax AND rapeseed wax:
https://www.4candles.co.uk/candle-making-wax/natural-ecosoya-rapeseed-beeswax.html
I use GW415 which they don't seem to have, but you might be able to substitute another - I think @Dawni has tried 464 or similar?

I have been tweaking my recipe over my (almost) first year of making soap. I now go for something like this:
20% Coconut
20% Soy wax
20% Olive Oil ( don't use extra virgin, it's very expensive)
20% Rice Bran Oil ( I've upped this recently from 15% because it's sooooo cheap)
10% Shea Butter
5 % each of castor and avocado oils.

Or you might want to try @Zany_in_CO 's No-Slime Castile which uses faux sea-water to harden. You can search on here for that one. I make it with 10% CO and 5% Castor.

Good luck! And here's to long lasting soap

 

[MGM]

Hi @soaplassie thank you for your question about soap longevity. I am even a newer newbee than you.

By the way I also found the abbreviations difficult. For future beginners, I will not abbreviate.

You'll soon learn them and will decide that you, too, would rather say CO than coconut oil, SB than stick blender, and EVOO rather than extra-virgin olive oil (yes, some people do use it for soap; no, it's not recommended). Pro tip though: IPA means isopropyl alcohol, not India Pale Ale, even if you're making a beer soap ;-)

 

[Dawni]

This UK site sells soy wax AND rapeseed wax:
https://www.4candles.co.uk/candle-making-wax/natural-ecosoya-rapeseed-beeswax.html
I use GW415 which they don't seem to have, but you might be able to substitute another - I think @Dawni has tried 464 or similar?

Yep, 464 results here
Side note: At 40% the unscented soap has a "waxy scent" to me, which could be all in my head lol but I thought I'd mention it. Can't say if it'll be the same with the 415...

 

[ParisYank]

You'll soon learn them and will decide that you, too, would rather say CO than coconut oil, SB than stick blender, and EVOO rather than extra-virgin olive oil (yes, some people do use it for soap; no, it's not recommended). Pro tip though: IPA means isopropyl alcohol, not India Pale Ale, even if you're making a beer soap ;-)

Hi MGM,
Thanks for your reply.
Naw. I choose not to abbreviate. I am too much of a COD person (that's OCD but in the correct alphabetical order <grin>). It is a disorder that I must endure.
BTW, it is isopropanol. Sorry, I was trained and worked as a chemist
Thanks again, Best, D

 

[ParisYank]

Hi there,

I use soy wax at 20% in my recipes - as I too make vegan and palm-free soap. I initially used cocoa butter and shea butter as my hard oils (which contribute to longevity), but they are very expensive. I still include Shea at 10% in my recipes.

To abbreviate @DeeAnna's advice - hardness does not equal longevity. A good estimate for longevity is to total up your Palmitic and Stearic acid scores (in your chosen lye calculator) and subtract from that the total of your Lauric and Myristic. Mine are usually around 22 (and I still think they wear down quickly - so it's not a sure fire recipe for success, but I tend to use mine after only a 2 - 3 month cure so they might be better if left longer before using).

It's the Palmitic and Stearic that will help with bar longevity - and typically these come from animal fats or palm. I use soy wax because it is high in Stearic. Because of my lack on animal fat and palm, my recipes are usually fairly low in Palmitic.

This UK site sells soy wax AND rapeseed wax:
https://www.4candles.co.uk/candle-making-wax/natural-ecosoya-rapeseed-beeswax.html
I use GW415 which they don't seem to have, but you might be able to substitute another - I think @Dawni has tried 464 or similar?

I have been tweaking my recipe over my (almost) first year of making soap. I now go for something like this:
20% Coconut
20% Soy wax
20% Olive Oil ( don't use extra virgin, it's very expensive)
20% Rice Bran Oil ( I've upped this recently from 15% because it's sooooo cheap)
10% Shea Butter
5 % each of castor and avocado oils.

Or you might want to try @Zany_in_CO 's No-Slime Castile which uses faux sea-water to harden. You can search on here for that one. I make it with 10% CO and 5% Castor.

Good luck! And here's to long lasting soap

Wow. Thank you KiwiMoose,
I have never seen (in my short soap making life) a recipe with a profile so balanced. I like your approach. Thanks for your reference in the UK; I bookmarked it. Amazon has soy wax at an inexpensive price that I can order for delivery here but I will compare the prices with shipping.
Thanks again, I learned a lot today.
/D

 

[MGM]

Hi MGM,
Thanks for your reply.
Naw. I choose not to abbreviate. I am too much of a COD person (that's OCD but in the correct alphabetical order <grin>). It is a disorder that I must endure.

Yeah, me too. My son has it. But his obsessive thoughts precede his compulsive behaviours, so I don't think it would occur to him to alphabetize the letters!

BTW, it is isopropanol. Sorry, I was trained and worked as a chemist
Thanks again, Best, D

Mais où ça? TBH, I don't know why the abbreviation has a capital P, but it sure is labelled isopropyl alcohol. Même en français, c'est soit Alcool isopropylique, soit 2-Propanol (comme en anglais).

 

[DeeAnna]

...BTW, it is isopropanol...

A fair sprinkling of us have training and professional experience in engineering and sciences, including chemistry. But many more of us have a limited science background. We all get along and communicate just fine by using the common names names for chemicals. People do not need to use "proper" chemical nomenclature if the common names are sufficiently descriptive.

The only exception is if a common name happens to be unclear or ambiguous, leading to a safety or communication problem. I do not think there is any hint of a safety or communication problem, however, by MGM's use of isopropyl alcohol rather than isopropanol. Or the oft-used glycerin or glycerine versus glycerol. Or tryglyceride (or fat) versus triacylglyceride.

 

[soaplassie]

She meant coconut oil

A purely coconut oil soap for example will finish faster than one with less of it.

I use cocoa butter and/or shea butter and/or mango butter to harden my vegan soaps. Several members here use pure soy wax.

Also, hardness is not longevity. Give this page, and the whole site a read, tons of info.

Thanks Dawni
Really interesting reading. How to I find out what the fatty acid profile of different oils and butters is? I've tried the following recipe in Soapmaking friend soap calculator but just can't get the Oleic value up above 35%. any suggestions?
caster oil 5%
CO 20%
olive oil 30%
rapeseed oil 10%
Avocado oil: 15%
Cocoa butter: 10%
Soya wax: 10%

 

[mystery_soap_theater_3000]

BTW, it is isopropanol. Sorry, I was trained and worked as a chemist

While I appreciate the sentiment, IUPAC has propan-2-ol as preferred name these days. And I think we can all agree that hardly roles off the tongue!

 

[DeeAnna]

...How to I find out what the fatty acid profile of different oils and butters is? I ... just can't get the Oleic value up above 35%. any suggestions?...

In SoapmakingFriend, go to Section 5 where the fats are listed. Find a fat you want to know more about. Hover over the gold circle with an "i" in it next to that fat. You will see its fatty acid profile, as well as other data.

High oleic fats are olive oil, high oleic (HO) canola, HO sunflower, HO safflower, avocado, almond oil (sweet), etc. Anything about 60% oleic or higher is a high oleic oil in my opinion. Rice bran oil is a "higher" oleic oil that some people like to use as their oleic oil, but it's not as high in oleic as the others I've listed.

In your recipe, basically you need to use more olive and/or avocado. I'd probably opt for more olive based on price -- avocado cost more in my market, so I limit it to maybe 20% max. Avocado also has a high % of unsaponifiable chemicals in it, and this may affect the hardness or texture of the finished soap. Not saying it will just that it might.

 

[Fiona Robertson]

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