advice on HP soaping

[sheenaheitman]

Hello!! I started making soap and body butters the beginning of this year due to my children and their allergies. Of course friends and family wanted to try some and so they did and ever since they've pushed me to start a small business and so I did. Our business is only 1 month young and we are surprisingly doing very well! I do need advice from fellow soapers if at all possible!! We chose the HP method due to our customers absolutely going gaga over the appearance of our soaps and how rustic and handmade they look. I love HP soaping but wanted to know how if at all possible can HP soap can be made to become hard like CP soap? We don't mind the waiting or "curing" process of CP soap and that's not our reason for making HP we just really like the overall look of it. I would just really love to know how our HP soap can maybe become more dense per say or have an even longer usage. Our soap doesn't have air bubbles or anything but I have noticed some bars don't last as long as CP. I really love that my essential oils "stay" using HP. I am in my opinion very very very new at soaping and could use any and all advice given to me. Any pointers I am willing to try and any questions for me I'm willing to answer! I am also unsure but some of my research has lead me to believe some of my oils I use can cause a softer soap. We use very high quality organic oils such as organic virgin olive oil, organic virgin coconut oil, organic palm fruit and kernel oil, organic virgin rosehip oil, organic pumpkin seed and sunflower oil etc. I know using more evoo can lead to a softer bar and using more coconut or palm can lead to a harder bar. I know most basics but I am still learning and trying to soak up as much information as I can!! Your help and advice is greatly appreciated!!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I am sorry, but if you do not know things like this then is it fair to be charging people for your soaps?

One thing I will tell you - cure your HP soaps for as long, if not longer, than CP needs. HP is not an alternative to curing in any way, shape or form - it is just that the saponification process is finished before you mould it up.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Let the customer decide what's fair.

Without knowing anything about the soaps you make, other than they are hot processes, it could be your ratio of oils, water amount, cure time, etc. that make your bars soft. I'm assuming you've made cold process and hot process to be able to make the assessment that the same recipe in hot process is softer than in cold process.

As for longevity, I believe you'll need a higher palmitic and stearic acid.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Let the customer decide what's fair. .................

If the customer has any idea that the seller lacks experience :razz:

 

[girlishcharm2004]

If the customer has any idea that the seller lacks experience :razz:

Honestly, do you *always* know the experience, or lack thereof, when you buy something at the store? Usually, that's when I look at the other item and think, "$2 more? I'll go with that one because it'll probably last longer." Even though price does not necessarily equal quality. Sometimes I just put it in the cart and say, "I hope this works." That's where samples come in handy. Then one can actually prove their worth.

 

[Susie]

Hardness of bars of soap mentioned on the soap calculators does not mean long term hardness. It means how hard it is when unmolded and cut. If your bars are not hard after an appropriate cure, then something is wrong, and we will need to know your recipe(s), superfats, additives, and methods to know what that is. No, we are not trying to steal your recipes. We have our own that we have perfected over a long period of time.

You needed to know about the hardness issue before you started selling soap to an unsuspecting public. Making soap less than a year before selling means you have not worked out all the kinks. What if your soap developed DOS? What would your customers think of you then?

 

[sheenaheitman]

Thank you all for your honest opinions as I do really appreciate them! Yes I am new to the soap making world but just because I am new does not mean I don't have a clue as to what I am doing. I would NEVER charge someone for a product without it being 100% safe and effective. To be honest I only charge for what I pay in material and I have only done 1 show and that show was in the beginning of October. I think I could fairly say that 10 months of basic soap making practice is enough to attempt in selling my "basic" soaps to the public. I am licensed and insured just to be on the safe side if anything at all were to happen. I came here for advice wether positive or negative and maybe I posted into the wrong forum for I thought this was for beginning soap making questions. Or maybe I didn't clearly state my question and by reading it maybe there was confusion. I didn't do hot process because it is less "cure" time and I know the difference between HP and CP. If you read my post in it's entirety then maybe you wouldn't have given such a negative comment. I and my husband have been in the oil field since we were teens (19 and married) and we know all to well about flash points, sap values, lye etc.(operations manager of an oil refinery) so we have I don't know what you would prefer to call it but "basic" knowledge of oils. I believe that allowing HP or CP soap the chance to sit for as long as possible is the way to do it. All of my soap wether HP or CP sits and cures/dries/brews (however you want to say it) for no less than 8 weeks before we (my family) uses it ourselves. Then and only then it will be approved to be given to other family members and friends to try and then if it gets the second approval will I allow it to be purchased by anyone. I do believe that everyone started somewhere and sometime when making soap or any body care product, I know that people were not born making soap and I know that they were either taught by someone or learned by research, trial, error and practice just as I. I have only done 1 show since acquiring my business name, license and insurance that was in the beginning of October. Anyone that had shown even the slightest interest in our soaps or questions anyone had for me were all told honest and true answers. They all knew that I have been making soap for almost a year and that I am very new to the soaping world and that the show that I did in October was my very first one. I didn't do the show to sell sell sell I did the show to gain experience with people and what type of questions people had for me and to see if what I had people wanted or needed. It just so happened that I sold almost all of my product I had and that was shocking to me. There were 2 other soapers at the show and I felt since I was the "newbie" I would be overlooked due to "lack of experience" and all the other slightly rude comments mentioned above but it wasn't anything like that!! I was and still am confident in my soaps and back them 100%. One of the soapers there sent her father to our tent (me not knowing this at the time) to purchase a few bars and to basically check us out and ask us questions I guess to see what we were all about and well you know check out the "competition" in lack of better words. A couple days later she and her husband (the other soapers at the show) came down to our tent and me not knowing them approached them introduced myself gave a little run down of our soaps and started conversation with them. They asked me all sorts of questions even ones I never expected to be asked and then they hit me with "well we just want to tell you we are soapers too" and my jaw hit the floor! I knew they were judging me and my soaps and to my amazement they were wonderful very nice people. They began to tell me that they had their father come and take pictures of my product and purchase a few bars so they could try it just to see how it was. And they both said it was the best soap they've used bought from someone else before. They both thought I was pulling their leg when they were told I had only been making soap for about a year. She even asked if I could help her with a few recipes because she loved the way our soaps made her skin feel and the different ingredients we had used in them. They both said our labels were perfect and all information on them was exactly what it should be and our presentation and look of our soaps were beautiful but most of all the soaps that her father purchased a few days prior that she used she said were absolutely amazing. She and her husband loved everything about them. They had not one negative thing to say. She even sent people down to my tent to purchase from me when she didn't have what they were looking for. The recipes that I helped her with she emailed and told me that she did them the exact way I do mine and what we went over during our show and she has already sold every bar she made AND the customers who bought the bars from her have already placed orders for the holiday season as gifts (she did HP and allowed it to cure for 3 weeks) she has also been making soap for 3 years and business owner for 1 of the 3 years. I know that to you that story is meaningless but to me it means the world! Just because you may be new at something does not necessarily mean you are not good at it or you don't know what you are doing. I am very careful when it comes to making soap and body butters. We even purchased property where I am building/remodeling an awesome 6 car garage hooked up with electric, heat/cooling, sewer and water to become our workshop just for our new and young business. I follow the FDA website everyday, I follow all laws, rules and regulations as well as all manufacturing practices. I even write our procedures for each recipe once tried and true (within our family and friend group and believe me I have some very picky friends and family members to please) so every batch will be the same, come out the same and made with the same quality as all batched previous. I keep a very good log on all of my ingredients starting at the point of purchase and all specs of the ingredient all the way down to knowing where each gram of oil went even down to what the price of each gram used in each recipe will cost. I as other people always worry about DOS and what will my customers think if my soap gets DOS? Well I bought soap rom a fortune 500 company and a couple of weeks later noticed DOS so what do I think of them? Nothing at all. If you know your oils, if you know where they come from, if you pay close attention to all the specs of the oils, if you store them properly, if you know all the dates of manufacturing the oil from when it was produced to when it will expire etc you shouldn't have to worry as much with DOS. I can say that at very least I am trying and I am willing to make, run and own a successful business and do any and all things in the process. Everyone out there that makes soap for sale or just for fun and personal use has started somewhere and I am one of them. I am not greedy or stingy nor do I know everything about making soap but the funny thing is no one does. Everyday someone out there is trying something new or doing something for the very first time and yes they/we may fail at first but then we find what works and we run with it. And to the person that said "until my customers find out about my lack of experience" I will remember that as I live everyday knowing I am new and I do lack 10 years experience as some others have over me BUT each person that bought soap from me at my 1 show I've done since making soap knew that before any purchase was made and they still bought soap from me AND since I've had returning customers and even more customers through them by word of mouth. So my lack of experience has paid off somewhere because people like what I have and they like my lack of experience. As far as my HP soap goes they are not soft or tacky or anything of the sort I just didn't know if a HP soap could be made to be more dense like a CP soap. By that question people want to say it isn't fair to sell my soaps is wrong. Would you tell a first time mother it isn't fair to have a baby and raise it because she lacks experience due to not have children previously? No, you wouldn't tell someone that. Anyways yes I am new and I know that and thats the reason I came to find this website so I can learn more and soak up as much info as I can from others that do have experience. To the person that wanted to know more about what oils I use here is a recipe that I am still working on that I have made and used and others in my household has used it as well and LOVE it but maybe I would like it to be slightly harder than I have made it previously. Maybe if I try it CP method I could compare it to my HP method or if anyone has any advice on tweaking ingredients I would absolutely love the advice!!
84oz virgin olive oil
48oz virgin coconut oil
18oz sunflower oil
12oz unrefined shea butter
9oz jojoba oil
9oz tamanu oil
84oz honeysuckle tea (water infused with dried honeysuckle flowers overnight and refrigerated)
24.42oz sodium hydroxide
at trace I add 1.5oz beeswax and 3oz honey
not sure how people put their recipes on here either in percentages or weight so I just put it in weight but I always measure in grams just thought it would be easier to read in ounces. I am open to any advice tweaking this one for it is the most complicated recipe I have ever made. Maybe i should down size the honey a little or even the beeswax was something I was thinking or using more coconut and subbing out some olive and running it though the lye calc. I never used beeswax before in soap but I have used honey before and know the pro's and con's of honey but I am willing to learn more if anyone would like to teach!! Thanks again everyone for all of your words of advice negative and positive. Have a great day everyone!!

 

[Seawolfe]

/me runs screaming from the wall of text

 

[IrishLass]

Hello Sheena and welcome.

I ran your recipe through SoapCalc's calculator, and truly, the only really problematic thing that stands out to me like a sore thumb is that you have a lot of water in there- much more than what many of us consider to be a 'full-water' amount . Although HP generally requires more water than CP because of the cooking/evaporation factor, you can get by with using much less than what you are currently using, which I believe will help things out greatly.

If it were me, I would leave the oil/fat part of the recipe 'as-is' for now, especially since it works well for you and people love it, and I would instead just tweak the water level down to a total 1,811 grams/63 oz., which is a 28% lye solution (what many of us consider to be a 'full-water' amount).

If things don't improve after the water tweak, only then would I try tweaking the oil/fat part of the recipe.

Let us know how it goes!

IrishLass

 

[Susie]

OK, I apologize for sounding like a total b****. I really do. We get a lot of folks here that jump from "I made one batch of soap, and everyone liked it." to "I will make soap and get rich!" in about 2.5 seconds. Then they come here and ask for soap recipes, labels, and business plans. All in one tidy package, please and thank you!

You are not that person. And I apologize for assuming you were.

IrishLass is certainly an expert in all things soap, so try the water first. My very tiny experience in HP(one batch that was intentionally HP) yielded a soap that the texture I will refer to as "rustic". Not smooth and hard like CP. I did not care for it. I think from all I have read and seen, that that is just the nature of the beast.

If I might ask the burning question in everyone's mind, why not just make CP if that is the texture you want? If you are afraid your customers won't like it, why not do a little test of offering the same exact soap in CP and HP, and see which one sells better?

 

[seven]

i agree with what IrishLass said, def too much water. 63-72 oz max is what i would personally suggest. i also like to add 1-2% of sodium lactate when i do hp. it makes the batter more fluid and workable.

like Susie, i also don't care much with hp as "rustic" look is not my cup of tea. and also because at the end, hp needs a longer cure time than cp due to the higher percentage of water.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Yes, definitely too much water! Scale it down closer to 63 oz. I also second the sodium lactate as it helps make it more pourable. I'm assuming that's partly why the water content was so high -- to make it easier to work with. If you prefer not to use it and keep the water content high, then you'll need even longer cure times like 12 weeks or more. Also, too much water can contribute to deformed looking bars. I don't know for how rustic you want it to look. Ultimately, it's up to you! Just giving you a heads up about the deformity.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you *need* to wait until trace to add the beeswax for hot process. It just looks like an extra step and extra steps makes the process more complicated, prone to errors -- such as forgetting to add it, and less efficient. Since you're doing hot process, I don't see the problem in letting the beeswax melt with all the other oils as long as the oils are hot enough and completely melted when you add the lye. It would be different if you were cold processing it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Okay, so I will be seen to be swimming against the current here but -

I stand by what I said.

People might well love your products and they might well be great - they can be better than commercial soaps (of course!) and even better than another soaper's soaps. My issue is that you are selling something that you don't seem to fully understand.

I don't mean to suggest that we have to know all about soap making before we sell a soap, but certainly have tried to work out any issues (like this one) before we do so.

On another front, you say you are selling at around cost price - that is bad for the market in general. It is also terrible for you! Why should somene later on pay 4x as much (retail = cost x 4) for you soap? What has changed?

Here is a great resource, this website. Full of amazingly knowledgable (some of the science stuff is mind blowing!) and friendly people. Even I can be friendly! But again, when you say that you don't know how people put their recipes up, % or numbers, it shows me that you haven't dug even a little bit in to this gold mine. When I first found this place, I got as far as page 10 on the cp section just because there was so much gold back there, so much to learn.

People told me from the very start that I should sell, as my soap is also great, but I knew that I wanted to be very sure that I knew 100% about my soaps and why I settled on the recipes that I did (out of interest, what was it that led you to choosing those oils and water combination) so that I knew my product (not all soaps, just mine) like the back of my hand.

I doubt very much that anything I am saying will mean anything as you think I am just being nasty, but welcome and please please (please!) make use of the gold mine that you have found.

 

[Ktaggard]

Not sure you want to go in this direction, but for me, adding animal fats made a world of difference in bar longevity.

 

[CelestialLuxuries]

Nope, not too much water/liquid. There is a new way to make HP soap now if you want to be able to do swirls, etc. It's the HP page on FB. A lot of people have discovered and tried this way of making HP. While there are still the basics of HP, some use from 50%-100% liquids and the results are very impressive. I usually make CP but on occasion HP. I wanted to try this new way,so I did. I was doubtful and thought I had done something wrong. However, it was probably the best looking soap i have done thus far.

Everyone in here is so ready to jump on newbies. Why? Why in the world do you tell people that you need the same cure time for CP and HP. Ridiculous. You know the lye is cooked out in any HP recipe.The only reason for a cure time is for water to evaporate. Of course with the extra water in the new recipe it will take some time to take the water out, but not to "cure".

I rarely talk in here because you are the nastiest group of people I have run across in the soaping world. You jump on people, you insult, intimidate, and embarrass. You really should go back and look at what you have said in your posts to newbies. You eat your young. Why? Afraid of the competition? But, every one of you know the most, do the most, have the best soap? Why the intimidation? Because you sit on your computer and TALK soap, you surely don't make it. You know the saying:"If you can't do, then teach".

 

[seven]

Why in the world do you tell people that you need the same cure time for CP and HP. Ridiculous. You know the lye is cooked out in any HP recipe.
i'm sure the op understands about the saponification process in hp.
ridiculous? i don't think so.

The only reason for a cure time is for water to evaporate.
ins't the above one of the reasons for curing soaps?

Of course with the extra water in the new recipe it will take some time to take the water out, but not to "cure".
see the above.

Because you sit on your computer and TALK soap, you surely don't make it.
really? fact or assumption? who is the nasty one here?

:roll:

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Nope, not too much water/liquid. There is a new way to make HP soap now if you want to be able to do swirls, etc. It's the HP page on FB. A lot of people have discovered and tried this way of making HP. While there are still the basics of HP, some use from 50%-100% liquids and the results are very impressive. I usually make CP but on occasion HP. I wanted to try this new way,so I did. I was doubtful and thought I had done something wrong. However, it was probably the best looking soap i have done thus far.

Interesting! I'm not really a fan of hot process. I made some with a large amount of water that warped terribly. I'm curious to know this new method. Anyhow, so what do you recommend to the original poster?

Why in the world do you tell people that you need the same cure time for CP and HP. Ridiculous...The only reason for a cure time is for water to evaporate. Of course with the extra water in the new recipe it will take some time to take the water out, but not to "cure".

You just contradicted yourself. The only reason for cure time is for water to evaporate -- which is "curing" -- hence, why hot process may need even more time than cold process to cure because it uses way more water. Curing has nothing to do with saponification.

I rarely talk in here because you are the nastiest group of people I have run across in the soaping world. You jump on people, you insult, intimidate, and embarrass. You really should go back and look at what you have said in your posts to newbies. You eat your young. Why? Afraid of the competition? But, every one of you know the most, do the most, have the best soap? Why the intimidation? Because you sit on your computer and TALK soap, you surely don't make it. You know the saying:"If you can't do, then teach".

I understand your frustration, but this isn't the way to point it out. You are acting just as nasty as the people you are trying to insult. It begs the question why did you join and why do you post if you hate it so much?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I must say, when I added extra water to my hp batch it needed a much longer cure than any other soap (apart from my Castile!). I was unable to take it out of the mould for days and it was soft and sticky for a long time. After about 2 months they were firmer but didn't last overly long in the shower. Now after more than 3 months they are great bars of soap.

As for the point about being unhelpful to newbies, if you look through threads you will find many instances of help being given to newbies. Newbies looking to sell......that is a different matter.

For me, over here, people in the US aren't direct competition. You can't sell in the EU without going through all the legal stuff that I am going through which I think would put the majority of people off. So when I say that someone shouldn't be selling it is not from a protection of my business aspect, but from an aspect of being sensible and practical.

When you think about the question actually being asked by a newbie selling, it is "help me make my business better by telling me how I can make my product better/actually make my product" which is a ridiculous question to ask and I understand (because I feel the same) why people might not be too helpful there. If you went to a business advisor and said that you have just started a soaping business but need help making your soap better, they will also likely say that you need the product as near to perfect as you can get it before you actually go to market - it's not mean or nasty, it is just common sense, which alas seems to be all too rare these days.

Newbies who don't sell ask "help me make my soap better" which is a question much better suited to a soaping forum and get a much better response.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people should start a business after making one bar of soap. I whole-heartedly agree in testing several recipes for your tried-and-true favorites. (I'm in the process of testing out several similar recipes to see my favorite combo, and it's a lot of fun!) However, it seems that some people display an offended attitude when a "newbie" claims they are going to start a business. Honestly, if the question is too ridiculous to answer, then I don't answer rather than go off on why I'm offended that a "newbie" is trying to "steal" all my hard work. Also, if someone wants to make a fool of themselves by starting a business too early, then who am I to be offended? What's it to me? Nothing. But after seeings others reactions, then I think, "yikes".

 

[Susie]

I do not sell my soap. I am not competing with anyone for sales. I have no financial interest whatsoever in whether a newbie turns out soap that is horrible and sells it. However, I have had to deal with several friends who tell me how bad handmade soap is to "save me the trouble of trying to make good soap", and had to work really hard to get them to try my well tested, tried and true, non-irritating, truly cured soap. It is very difficult to convince them! It seems that people buy handmade soap at farmer's markets and such that looks and smells wonderful, but it is to look at or stick into a drawer, not to "actually use to bathe with". They don't believe me until I make them go wash their hands with my handmade soap. And it took 30+ minutes to get them to that point! My own MIL and FIL won't use my soap to this day! They have it as something to help the closet smell good.

So, you see, newbies who sell bad soap hurt everyone. Even those of us who don't sell. I HOPE those are newbies, anyway. Did I come off witchy? Yep. Did I apologize when I learned the true situation? Yep again. But when you have fought to fix the reputation of handmade wonderful soap for over a year(and some of these folks have been fighting this battle FAR longer!) It gives you a knee-jerk reaction to newbies who go from, "Ooh, this soap is so nice!" to, "I'm going to get rich making soap!" in 2.5 seconds. And I will probably have the same reaction after I get through convincing my ex's aunt with severe eczema to just TRY my unscented, uncolored soap ONCE.(Been 6 months, and I am still trying.) I don't want her to buy my soap, I just want to be able to help her. I would gladly keep making her free soap if she just feels better. Maybe then she will use the laundry and dish soap I made for her also.(not so she will buy from me, just to help her feel better)