Advice on avoiding DOS in baby soap?

[leeleetrue]

hi! this is my first, non-introductory post, so thanks in advance for any replies. i've been making soap for about a year and half after i spent a year researching what to do and - more importantly - what not to do. i think i was lulled into a false sense of security regarding INS numbers in SoapCalc. all of my recipes had an Iodine number below 70 (what i had read was the tipping point for DOS), but a few in particular had pretty low INS numbers (in the mid 120's). time has shown me that those particular recipes are prone to DOS, even with the addition of ROE to my base oils.

so now i'm in the process of reformulating my recipes; i've only been selling direct to customers for a bit, but in the hopes of eventually selling wholesale i'm trying to work out this occasional DOS problem. i've come up with an 'adult' soap recipe that i'm happy with - good numbers on pretty much every front, and a lower SF number, since i've read that too high a SF can also lead to DOS over time. the two recipes that had occasional DOS both had SF of 7%, while my 6% recipes never had that problem, so i'm lowering all recipes to this SF percentage.

my question comes with my 'baby' soap. i loved the recipe i had - and my two little girls' skin bore witness to how gentle and moisturizing it was. the only problem was the DOS, and obviously this is no small problem. this is what it was, and with my new knowledge of the importance of the INS number, i'm convinced it needs overhauled.

palm and olive - 30% each
castor - 17%
shea - 9%
coconut and avocado - 7% each.
SF at 7%

so here's my conundrum: i cannot seem to formulate a recipe that's got a decent INS number while still being really conditioning. most of the baby soap recipes i find are mostly bastille...once i run the numbers, the INS is crazy low. i certainly know that pure castille soap defies the numbers, but i'm nervous to waste precious resources in developing something that will just spoil sooner rather than later. i was thinking of a recipe with olive, coconut, castor and avocado with a bit of palm for hardness sake, and a 6% SF, but again, i just can't get the numbers to work.

should i ignore the INS numbers when making bastille? when doing a bastille, palm-free baby soap, is it a no-no to add salt for hardness sake? could i solve my DOS problem just by lowering the SF% in my existing recipe? anyone's experience with baby soap is certainly appreciated. thanks!

 

[roseb]

My bastille is recipe is 95% OO and 5% Castor with a 7% sf. It's been curing now for 7 months and no sign of DOS. I don't know about the addition of salt...I'll let someone address that question.

Some of my recipes are not far from yours and I sf @ 8% normally and have not had a problem with DOS. Could it be the room that you are curing the soaps in. Maybe too much humidity?

 

[Nevada]

Hi leeleetrue,
Yes, ignore INS, I find "hardness" and "INS" to be of little use.
Your castor is a little high, usual addition is 5%, more and the bar gets sticky.
Just increase your Olive to 42%.
You can add about 4% Sea Salt at trace.
I don't see any Hi-Linoleic oils (like Hemp oil) that would ordinarily make a bar prone to DOS. Is it DOS or just spotty areas?
To reduce the chance of DOS add about .08% ROE, Rosemary Oleoresin Extract. Here's how I weigh it, click here

Hope this helps, and Welcome to the Board!
Roy

 

[Obsidian]

I too use a higher SF, 8%-10% and I've only had DOS on really old bars left in the shower that aren't being used. I've never had a whole batch get DOS and never worry about the INS number.
Storage has a lot to do with DOS. Cool and dry is best, warm and humid is bad. It also needs good air flow so no storing in closed plastic containers. Mine go in paper bag then on a shelf in the closet.

 

[Dorymae]

Remember baby's skin is perfect the way it is. It doesn't need moisturizing. It is unspoiled by all the things that cause 'grown up' skin to be rough or dried out. Castiles and bastilles are considered the most mild soaps (non irritating) which is why you see them most often for baby soaps.

 

[leeleetrue]

last year my soaping room was HOT, but i've had an a/c running in there since last july (except over winter, when that room is frigid). it certainly solved most of my DOS issues, but not all...i've been doing an outdoor farmers' market this summer, so that certainly doesn't help things. but even some bars that have just come off the curing rack have developed a spot or two, though it doesn't seem to accelerate as fast as it did last year.

i started the baby soap because my three-year old was getting really dry skin over the winter. we've got atrociously hard water here, and combined with hereditary dry/sensitive skin issues, it was pretty necessary. i do a cleansing of about 5 and 60+ conditioning and it seems to work okay. i market it as sort of a baby/kids/ultra-sensitive skin soap.

 

[Ellacho]

I agree with Obsidian. I don't use a high SF(usually 5%~6%). Last year, I read from a soap book that storing soaps in plastic containers keep the scent there longer. So I did. Prior to that, my soaps were on rack timelessly. And I have never experienced the DOS for those soaps.

After 9 months later or so, I started to notice that soaps they were in closed plastic containers, started to showing a few of DOS.

 

[leeleetrue]

I've wondered if it's my olive oil...most of my other oils come from soap or body product suppliers, but the olive oil comes from a local food outlet (i just can't beat the price). i really don't know how long it sits there til i get it, but talking to the clerk there (my step-aunt), a lot of soapers in the area buy their stuff there, including a friend of mine, so i don't really know WHAT the cause is...all i know is it's a pain.

so the eternal question is: what is the INS number for, anyway? can i continue to make soaps with low INS digits and be okay? i tried the ROE route (and still do), my studio is cool and dry, i let things cure to the open air for 8 weeks and then wrap them, and i keep my studio dark when it's not in use. what else can i do? i've got a local shop owner interested in talking to me about carrying my soaps, and i'm so worried about this DOS thing that i haven't even called her yet. it's not anywhere near every bar, but it happens enough that i don't want to ruin my reputation as a soapmaker by selling bars that have started to turn by the time someone buys them :/

 

[LanaBanana]

You mentioned having hard water. Are you using tap water or distilled water when making your soap? I've never used tap water, but I've heard it could cause spots in your soap if the minerals in the watet react to the lye. Just a thought.

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[pamielynn]

The INS number was created for large-scale commercial soap making. It is going to do nothing to help with DOS. Check your linolenic number - if it's close to 15, this could be a problem - the soap mixture could be too fragile.

One thing that I do to help slow down rancidity, is to treat each batch of oils with some vitamin e or meadowfoam oil when they arrive. Also, smell your oils each time before you use them - if they start to smell "off", don't use them.

A huge problem that I have is that I sell at outdoor markets in the summer - in Texas. Some bars travel to many different locations and I've lost whole batches due to the heat. I now store the soap in a cooler when I go to a show and put less soap on the table.

 

[dixiedragon]

I think it's weird you're getting spots so quickly and so regularly! I agree with Obsidian that it's important where you store them. In my experience, having a dry storage area is more important than the temp. My soaps stored in the attic didn't have DOS, and that temp ranges from the 20s to over 100. My soaps stored in the cool, damp basement had DOS and were tacky and smelled off.

Where are you storing your oils?

 

[judymoody]

Could your olive oil possibly be adulterated? Your recipe looks pretty stable to me.

I get my olive oil at Costco, their store Kirkland brand. It is good quality and pretty economical.

 

[dixiedragon]

If where you live is humid, a dehumidifier may help.

 

[leeleetrue]

my linolenic is zero, and linoleic is 9. i use distilled water (or sometimes things like carrot juice made with distilled water, cucumber puree, aloe gel) for my lye - using my own water would likely lead to disaster lol.

i store my oils and cure my soaps all in the same room. i always keep the a/c running or it would feel like a sauna in there. air conditioning is supposed to remove moisture from the air, isn't it? i use two different coated metal racks for curing. i tried washing the baker's style racks the other week to remove any old soap bits, but that obviously hasn't been enough time to see any results. i know storing soap on uncoated metal can lead to DOS, but both racks are powder coated; besides, some of the spots have shown up where there's no contact with the rack, like right smack in the middle of the face.

more and more, i'm thinking i should just bite the bullet and find a different olive oil brand. i use Golden Barrel brand. It's a food supply company, so you'd think it would be pure olive oil...but maybe it's not. I treat it with 0.05% ROE when i open it, and often add a little more when i'm mixing for my batch. i wondered if it was my palm oil for a bit - i had purchased a five gallon bucket and even though i treated the whole thing with ROE, it took a long time to use it all. but some castille soap i'd tried making got DOS last year before i put in the a/c. i suppose that could have had far more to do with the climate in my room than the quality of the oil, though. i haven't done castille since then to know for sure.

in any case, i certainly appreciate the wealth of answers i've gotten with this post! i've felt like this is my dirty little soaping secret. in summation, i'm gathering that INS isn't really an issue? oh, and in reply to Nevada - i'm sad to say it's definitely DOS. i get spots here and there sometimes from different things (usually if water weeps on the top since i usually do full water), but these would start out as white discolorations and gradually turn orange.

@pamielynn - that is a good idea. i think i'll stop bringing along so much to the market.
@Ellacho - do you think that shrinkwrapping exacerbates the problem? i'd been doing shrinkwrap since pretty much the beginning, but i'm transitioning to wrapping in kraft paper instead. i wonder if this will help or harm...

 

[judymoody]

I read a lengthy thread somewhere which experimented with different types of storage/packaging and DOS. Cotton muslin bags were the best, followed by (I think) naked bars in large cardboard boxes. Google and you will probably come across it.

 

[dixiedragon]

I live in Alabama, and it is very humid! Air conditioning does pull some moisture from the air, but even with that, we are still emptying our 2 dehumidifiers at least once a day. If it's very humid where you are, I'd try that.

You mentioned using carrot juice, cucumber puree and aloe gel. Does teh DOS happen with the batches that don't use any botanical additives?

 

[dixiedragon]

I think in your case, I would go get some olive oil from an entirely different source, make a small batch, and see what happens.

 

[seven]

don't worry so much about the numbers. they serve as guidelines, but don't totally focus on them.

a lot of my oils are food grade and came from the supermarket (palm, co, canola, olive). i don't treat all my oils with ROE, only the ones with short shelf life (hemp, soy, canola. certainly not palm, co, olive).

your baby soap, i'm betting it's the high castor, prolly combined with the way you cure and store your soaps. i live in a hot and humid place all year round. a dehumidifier helps, also not placing your soaps near wet areas like the bathroom for example.

Nevada's suggestion to tweak your recipe is a good one. you can also give the soap a longer cure to make it more milder and bubblier.

 

[Obsidian]

Air conditioning does not remove moisture from the air. Maybe you should pick up a cheap hygrometer and check your humidity, if its high, a small fan might be enough to lower it.

 

[leeleetrue]

these are great tips, everyone; thank you so much!

ironically, the DOS happens in soaps with no botanical additives. some of my carrot soaps fell prey but that was before the a/c. no problems with them since that. i'll try lowering the castor in my new recipes (i was seduced by the 'bubbly' lather numbers, lol) and see about getting a dehumidifier. PA is notoriously humid in the summers, like most of the Eastern seaboard. i will definitely google that tip about DOS and soap packaging. - i hope kraft paper wrapping works well because i'm in love with the way it looks.