Adding Oil after Saponification. Hot Process

[littlboz]

Saponification occurs when the lye and oil are mixed together and you get "trace."

If you realize that your soap is lye heavy by the tongue zap test can you add in more oil after saponification and the mixture is already in a mash potato consistency?

Do you need to add in more water with the additional oil so it mixes better?

(The reason I ask is because I measured out the correct amount of lye and oil and had to add in 6oz of oil in a 16oz batch before it wasn't caustic. I measured so carefully too and got second confirmation from my love, girlfriend.)

 

[judymoody]

Did you run your recipe through a lye calculator like the one at www.soapcalc.net

Assuming that the proportions are correct, maybe you just need to wait longer If the soap zaps initially, cook it some more.

Posting your recipe would help us to troubleshoot.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[littlboz]

Thank you for the welcome Judymoody.

Here is the recipe I used. The amounts in parenthesis I added to make the batch pass the zap test:

coconut oil = 6.5 oz (+2 oz)
olive oil = 6.5 oz (+4 oz)
shea butter = 3.5 oz
total weight in oil 16.5oz (22.5 oz)

lye=2.4 oz
Water= 4oz (+3 oz)

I cooked it for 2 hours and maybe a half. It was getting dry and waxy which is why I added more water. As a side note I am not sure if I should have added more water or just oil to make it less dry and crumbly.

Possible errors:
Lye
I was using a measuring cup but I kept the lye a good few centimeters below 1/3cup which is 2.6 oz. It should have been around 2.4oz which is 5% superfat.
The lye is Roebic's crystal drain. Maybe because the lye isn't liquid it is off. I was under the impression though that all recipes used crystal lye, not liquid.
Oil
Used value for shea butter not shea oil, but they are so close. Maybe I should have melted the shea butter first for a more accurate measurement rather then scooping in globs.

 

[Fragola]

If you need to incorporate the new oil into the soap, you need to be able to easily use the blender on it.

Which means that you may need to add a little water and/or alcohol.

I am not sure exactly how you did it, but:

1. All quantities for a soap recipe are measured by weight, not volume (you don't measure the lye with cups).

2. The lye crystals need to be very well dissolved in water before adding them to your oils.

Yes, you can add more water if your soap is dry, but I fear you have a MUCH bigger problem here, meaning the quantities were inaccurately measured.

 

[carebear]

can you add in more oil after saponification and the mixture is already in a mash potato consistency?

probably. you can, but if it's already textured then you risk ending up with seeping lye water or pockets of it, and an odd texture in the finished soap. i recommend, if you do that, to use the stick blender to ensure it's all smoooooooth. the excess lye will react with the new oil and voila!

also you can HP it. same rules.

Do you need to add in more water with the additional oil so it mixes better?

depends on what you have, really - if you can get smooth without more water I'd be happier.

 

[soapbuddy]

If you know exactly how much oil or butter you have missed, go ahead and add it while the soap is still hot and mix very, very well. If it's just a small batch, I would chuck it and start over. Why waste additional ingredients in case something still ends up wrong?

 

[carebear]

Thank you for the welcome Judymoody.

Here is the recipe I used. The amounts in parenthesis I added to make the batch pass the zap test:

coconut oil = 6.5 oz (+2 oz)
olive oil = 6.5 oz (+4 oz)
shea butter = 3.5 oz
total weight in oil 16.5oz (22.5 oz)

lye=2.4 oz
Water= 4oz (+3 oz)

I cooked it for 2 hours and maybe a half. It was getting dry and waxy which is why I added more water. As a side note I am not sure if I should have added more water or just oil to make it less dry and crumbly.

Possible errors:
Lye
I was using a measuring cup but I kept the lye a good few centimeters below 1/3cup which is 2.6 oz. It should have been around 2.4oz which is 5% superfat.
The lye is Roebic's crystal drain. Maybe because the lye isn't liquid it is off. I was under the impression though that all recipes used crystal lye, not liquid.
Oil
Used value for shea butter not shea oil, but they are so close. Maybe I should have melted the shea butter first for a more accurate measurement rather then scooping in globs.

You list by weight but talk about volume in a measuring cup.

ALL MUST BE WEIGHED. The ounces are BY WEIGHT!

 

[littlboz]

Solution: Conversion of oils to fl oz and possibly lye

Woh Carebear, you hit the nail on the head. I can't believe I didn't realize that. I did some research an came up with solutions and a question. In short I cam to the conclusion that 1 fl oz ~ 1.45 oz ("~" approximately). Can someone with a scale check this for me? I know some brands might be different but they should at least be somewhat close.

I found how many fl oz = oz for the oils I used:
1 fl oz of olive oil = .95 oz
1 fl oz of coconut oil = 1.09 oz
1 fl oz of shea butter = 1.00 oz
1 fl oz of water = 1.04oz (US oz's are a bit bigger then others, supersized )
Found these measurements by:
http://convert-to.com/conversion-of-ing ... ng-recipes
http://www.coconutoil-online.com/measur ... t_oil.html

Therefore my recipe should be:
coconut oil 8.5 fl oz = 9.265 oz
olive oil 10.5 fl oz = 9.975 oz
shea butter 3.5 fl oz = 3.5 oz
Total oil 16.5 fl oz = 23.4 oz

The amount of lye needed is at least 3.47 oz. (I have attached the chart to this reply if you wanted to super fat it).

Therefore 2.40 fl oz ~ 3.47 oz
1 fl oz ~ 1.45 oz


so, question: if anyone has a scale on hand could they measure out 1 fl oz (2 scoops of a tablespoon)for me and see if it comes close to 1.45 oz :wink: . It would be super cool so I don't have to buy a scale right away :-D and I am really curious if my math is right, aren't you curious to see if this amount of volume= the mass?

 

[krissy]

while i might be curious to see if you are right, i wont actually tell you. i cant encourage you enough to go get a scale. they have them at Target for less than $20. I got a good one at Brandsmart USA for $6.00 on sale. they are not that pricey and are worth the cost. you really need to do everything by weight, not by measuring spoons etc.

 

[littlboz]

heheheh lol, thanks Krissy for the tough love.

I am a college student right now and it is finals week so I'll have to do that later but I am soooooo curious. I beg you to tell me.

 

[carebear]

Not correct for the lye. at least at my house.

one fluid ounce = 2 US tablespoons = 30mls. with one of MY tablespoon, MY lye weighs 32 grams. with the other tablespoon, MY lye weighs 33 grams.


most of the liquids we use have a specific gravity close to 1, which is the sg for water. so you CAN use liquid measurements for oils (melted) IF your measuring containers are accurate. WHICH KITCHEN IMPLEMENTS RARELY, IF EVER, ARE. and if you measure properly looking at the bottom of the meniscus and if you get it all out of the container and all that stuff. for granular stuff like lye your material has air spaces between granules, and different grain sizes or shapes will make that vary (lye comes in beads and flakes). for bulky solids you can have air bubbles and space between chunks.


just weigh it all - it's so much easier and more accurate. and use grams.

 

[Fragola]

with one of MY tablespoon, MY lye weighs 32 grams. with the other tablespoon, MY lye weighs 33 grams.

With the same tablespoon, one of my lyes weights 20 grams, and another one 17.

You either have a huge tablespoon, or a mighty heavy lye. :shock:
Reminds me of the heavy metal discussion in some other topic

 

[ericllucas]

If you measure 10 different things by volume, those things will all weigh something different. That is assuming, of course, the density of the things are different. I think the materials we use in soapmaking are generally different enough in density that we cannot use a cross-reference between weight and volume for one substance for another.

While it is possible to weigh a certain volume of water, and come up with a cross-reference between weight and volume, one cannot use that translation table to determine the weight of a certain volume of some other substance.

Since soapmaking is a chemical process, the degree of error cannot be that big or you get, well, issues in your batter. It may be easier (and cheaper) to get a scale of some sort and just weigh everything. Just my tuppence...

 

[carebear]

with one of MY tablespoon, MY lye weighs 32 grams. with the other tablespoon, MY lye weighs 33 grams.

With the same tablespoon, one of my lyes weights 20 grams, and another one 17.

You either have a huge tablespoon, or a mighty heavy lye. :shock:
Reminds me of the heavy metal discussion in some other topic

Not so - I said an ounce was TWO tablespoons, and that using the tablespoons I measured one ounce (two tablespoons) was 33 and the other 32.

 

[carebear]

the small amount of error caused by differences in density when measuring liquid oils by volume is much smaller than that introduced when using kitchen measuring cups. but either way, tis not a good idea.