3rd batch failed. Help!

[ninibug09]

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, but I have now failed 3 times trying to make the same type of soap. I have been trying to make a honey, coconut milk soap. Every time I have made it (3 times now!) it looks great on the outside but doesn't smell like the fragrance oil. I have been using the Pure Honey Fragrance from Brambleberry. Not only does it not smell anything like the fragrance, once I cut it open it really does not smell good. I'll try to come up with some words to describe the smell...rancid, play doh like...it just smells gross. I've listed my recipe with some notes. Hopefully, someone can offer some insight.

(1 lb. of soap)

Liquids: 6.08 oz. (I combined the lye with 4.08 oz of water and added the rest of the liquid as coconut milk, to my oils. 2 oz. to be specific)
Lye 2.3 oz.

Castor Oil .8 oz.
Cocoa Butter 1.3 oz.
Coconut Oil 4.8 oz.
Hemp Oil .8 oz.
Palm Oil 3.2 oz.
Olive Oil 3.2 oz.
Sweet Almond Oil 1.6 oz.
Beeswax .3 oz.

.7 oz. Sodium lactate to cooled lye water
.5 oz. Pure Honey Fragrance
1 Tsp. Honey (mixed into my coconut milk and added this portion of the liquids to my oils before adding my lye)

*Also, I've noticed that these batches have been tracing very quickly and almost seem to gel quickly. I would love to know what is going on here.

 

[dixiedragon]

It might just be your nose. At least 1 review on BB described it as "chemically". There are some FOs I definitely get a play-dough note from that are very popular, such as BB's Oatmeal Milk and Honey. How old is the oldest batch you made? Some FOs go through a sort of transition and take a few weeks to develop when they are in soap.

 

[ninibug09]

It might just be your nose. At least 1 review on BB described it as "chemically". There are some FOs I definitely get a play-dough note from that are very popular, such as BB's Oatmeal Milk and Honey. How old is the oldest batch you made? Some FOs go through a sort of transition and take a few weeks to develop when they are in soap.

okay, you've got me thinking because all of my failed batches have been with this fragrance oil. Before that, I wasn't having any issues. The oldest batch I had was about a month old. Even though the smell wasn't what I wanted, it wasn't as awful as when I unmolded it.

 

[BattleGnome]

You may have slight overheating with the coconut oil and all the sugars which could be doing something to the fragrance.

Have you made this recipe without this particular fragrance and have you used this fragrance in a different recipe? If the answer to either is yes and the batch was successful then I’d say it was a combination issue.

 

[ninibug09]

You may have slight overheating with the coconut oil and all the sugars which could be doing something to the fragrance.

Have you made this recipe without this particular fragrance and have you used this fragrance in a different recipe? If the answer to either is yes and the batch was successful then I’d say it was a combination issue.

I thought about trying this. Maybe I will try putting the FO in a more basic recipe. I really don't want to give up on this scent!

I thought about trying this. Maybe I will try putting the FO in a more basic recipe. I really don't want to give up on this scent!

Come to think of it, every time I have tried it, even with tweaking a few things, it either traces very quickly or overheats. I don't know if that would affect the smell? With the other batches where that has happened, its the same thing... I cut it open and it smells awful. It is also very odd looking consistency-wise...crumbly in certain areas but not dry. Almost sticky on the inside, play doh ish

 

[penelopejane]

Yes overheating effects the smell. What temp are you soaping at?

There is an awful lot going on in this soap. I find that oils don't make any difference at all to a soap if they are less than 10%. Except castor and I stick to 5% for that.

Beeswax is also problematic in soap. You need to soap warm for it to keep dissolved. Coconut, Palm and cocoa butter also need to be clear before you start but you don't want to overheat the coconut milk. Honey can cause overheating but you haven't added much (1 tsp in 500g) so it shouldn't effect your recipe at all.

You are using 3% FO which is low.

 

[ninibug09]

Yes overheating effects the smell. What temp are you soaping at?

There is an awful lot going on in this soap. I find that oils don't make any difference at all to a soap if they are less than 10%. Except castor and I stick to 5% for that.

Beeswax is also problematic in soap. You need to soap warm for it to keep dissolved. Coconut, Palm and cocoa butter also need to be clear before you start but you don't want to overheat the coconut milk. Honey can cause overheating but you haven't added much (1 tsp in 500g) so it shouldn't effect your recipe at all.

You are using 3% FO which is low.

I have been soaping at no higher than 120 degrees F

 

[penelopejane]

I know it's only a small amount but I'd try 110*F max. Not sure of the temp for beeswax but someone else will know. Do you CPOP?

 

[psfred]

You will need to warm the oils above 140F to dissolve the beeswax. You will then need to allow them to cool somewhat to prevent overheating.

I'd guess you have an accelerating FO, compounded by a lot of coconut oil and sugars. Your soap is overheating and will smell "cooked" as a result, and will also discolor to a dark tan most likely.

You can prevent a lot of the overheating by allowing the lye and oils to cool before combining them, especially the lye. Don't let the high melting point oils precipitate -- the oil will get cloudy if they do because what you want to do next is mix to trace, pour into your mold, do any swirls, etc, then put the mold in the refrigerator, well covered. This will keep it from overheating. You may need to put in in the freezer first. A few hours should be enough chilling time, but it may take overnight if I have the information I've read correct here. Take the mold out after a few hours or overnight and allow it to warm up to room temp and check for texture.

If you have precipitated oils, they are not going to saponify very quickly, hence the need to keep them melted initially. You don't want "stearic spots" of unsaponified fatty acids in the finished soap.

Chilling it will slow down saponification, so it may take an extra day to get hard enough to cut. It will not get hot, though, so it won't cook the sugars or FO. Probably will not gel, either, but I wouldn't worry much about that. The end result should be nice smelling soap with even texture,

I'm not a fan of beeswax in soap, the resulting fatty acid salts and alcohols are barely soluble in water and can make your skin feel sticky. But put it in if you like, it's your soap!

 

[dixiedragon]

Going in the opposite direction - how about hot process? I love beeswax in my soap at 5%. When I hot process my honey beeswax soap, I put most of my oils in the crockpot and melt them - I hold back the beeswax and castor oil. I microwave the beeswax and castor oil in the microwave until it is melted, then add it to the crockpot. When the oils are melted (make sure the beeswax hasn't resolidified), add the lye water, stick blending as you pour. Cook on low for 30-45 minutes. When the soap is ready to pour in the mold, add your coconut milk, honey and fragrance. stick blend, then pour.

 

[zanzalawi]

hot process is a great idea!

 

[ninibug09]

Going in the opposite direction - how about hot process? I love beeswax in my soap at 5%. When I hot process my honey beeswax soap, I put most of my oils in the crockpot and melt them - I hold back the beeswax and castor oil. I microwave the beeswax and castor oil in the microwave until it is melted, then add it to the crockpot. When the oils are melted (make sure the beeswax hasn't resolidified), add the lye water, stick blending as you pour. Cook on low for 30-45 minutes. When the soap is ready to pour in the mold, add your coconut milk, honey and fragrance. stick blend, then pour.

I'm not really familiar with the hot process method, but I thought it creates sort of "goopy" soap that would be difficult to pour and doesn't look as smooth and even as CP soap. Am I wrong?

 

[penelopejane]

Yes you are right. But if you want to use beeswax in soap it might be a good alternative for you.

Why do you want to use beeswax in your soap?

 

[ninibug09]

Yes you are right. But if you want to use beeswax in soap it might be a good alternative for you.

Why do you want to use beeswax in your soap?

I think it is more of a personal thing for me. I grew up raising bees, I guess I am just in love with the smell of beeswax and the thought of adding it to my soaps. I'm not so sure that the wax is the issue, it appeared to blend just fine with my oils. Also, I forgot to mention that my previous failed batches did not have beeswax.

 

[Kamahido]

I used that very fragrance about a year ago and just wanted to say it was DIVINE!!! Smelled exactly like honey! I really need to reorder it!

 

[penelopejane]

With palm, coconut and butters you need to soap warm at about 110*C.
They have to be clear or almost clear or they will trace oddly. It mixes in fine but just traces oddly and later you can sometimes see unmixed bits in your soap.

With beeswax in CP soap do as psfred says above or use HP. You will not get any scent from the beeswax in CP soap.

With honey you tend to want to soap cool. Because it overheats depending on how much you use and your recipe. This will keep the soap a cream colour.

Or you can mix the honey with the lye first. This takes the heat out of the honey but it turns the soap into a milk coffee colour. Then you don't have to worry about trying to soap cool.

The FO might be problematic in itself. There is one review that says it is chemically and that it accelerated fast. That means it heats the mix too. This might be because of the recipe. I trust SMF reviews more than BB reviews but no one on SMF has reviewed it. Scent is a very personal thing but I've never smelt a good honey FO but I haven't tried BBs.

The only time I've had a really musty, horrible rubber smelling soap I accidentally cooked it in the oven at 170*F for 20 mins. A lot of people do this with no ill effects but it didn't work for me. The point is that it got too hot.

 

[dixiedragon]

I'm not really familiar with the hot process method, but I thought it creates sort of "goopy" soap that would be difficult to pour and doesn't look as smooth and even as CP soap. Am I wrong?

Here's a thread I made when I made a batch of 10% beeswax hot process (don't recommend the 10% part). There are some pics of the bars.

The soap batter is sort of thick and goopy, so yes the top of your bar will be bumpy. I like to lay a sheet of parchment paper on top of the soap and use my hands to smooth and pat it to make it as even as possible. Then when I unmold the soap, I cut off the top with a cheese slicer.

ETA: Here's a link to Soap Queen articles about hot process:
https://www.soapqueen.com/tag/hot-process/

You can see pictures of different batches here.

I think honey FOs (and OMH FOs) tend to be a bit problematic. So you are combining 4 problematic ingredients here - honey, beeswax, coconut milk and the FO. If it weren't for the beeswax, I'd say soap cool - around 100 or maybe even less (depending on your oils), but with the beeswax you have to soap hot. Hot process is good for this because there's very little lye left after the cook for the honey, the fragrance and the coconut milk to interact with.

 

[nebetmiw]

Go back to basics. Try a 3 oil with this FO see if that works. You got to narrow down what is causing it. My guess it reaction is to the hemp beeswax combo with the FO. Try just a 3 without those in it first. If that smells good then add one of the other. Process of elimination. Good luck.