2014: Sodium Lactate & Hot Process & Raw Apple Cider Vinegar

[Miz Jenny]

1st: Sodium Lactate: ordered and waiting to arrive. Can't find a definitive amount to use per lb of soap. Do I add to lye or at trace.

2nd: Hot Process: We have a spare crockpot and I really need to master this process for when I'm running low and don't have time for a long cure. Tips would be helpful.

3rd: Raw Apple Cider Vinegar: Going to make a new shampoo bar using part beer. Has anyone added raw acv to their shampoo bars? Into lye mix or at trace? Again, any info will be appreciated.

Y'all have a great weekend. It's 32f, so we're "having a heat wave..."

 

[Obsidian]

you can use 1%-3% sodium lactate. I was told to use 1 tsp PPO and that is plenty to keep HP fluid but not enough to really harden some of my softer batches so I have used 2 tsp PPO. You add it to your cooled lye water.

Vinegar can neutralize the lye in your batter, ruining your soap. Better off not using it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

y.........Vinegar can neutralize the lye in your batter, ruining your soap. Better off not using it.

Could one add it after the cook in HP? Just thinking of a 2-in-1 shampoo bar with the vinegar already there.

 

[Obsidian]

You could add a couple teaspoons but not enough to really make a 2 in 1. Vinegar will lower the PH, if it gets too low, you won't have soap anymore. Even a small amount of neutralized lye can increase the SF, not sure if you'd want that in shampoo.

 

[seven]

*i add 1-2 tsp of SL ppo to my batches, both cp and hp. i add the SL to my hot lye water, but you can also do it to cool lye water, it's the same.
*with hp, you wanna use full water, like 3:1 (water:lye). this works every time for me. the more fluid the batter, the better.
*if you are doing milk soaps the hp way, you might often find separation during cook. don't panic, simply stick blend till there's no more separation.
*additives goes after the cook with hp.

 

[Miz Jenny]

Doh! I know that vinegar neutralizes lye - what WAS I thinking!?!

 

[pattime]

You could add a couple teaspoons but not enough to really make a 2 in 1. Vinegar will lower the PH, if it gets too low, you won't have soap anymore. Even a small amount of neutralized lye can increase the SF, not sure if you'd want that in shampoo.

Thanks for that Obsidian, I needed to know about the SL too
What about citric acid in HP soap?? I plan to make Genny's shampoo bar soon and I've read that some add citric acid (were you one of them??) to a shampoo bar. If so, how much would be good ppo?

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but in my mind it's related ....vinegar/citric acid lowering the ph of the soap. If I'm OUT of my mind (which is often the case) please forgive?

 

[Obsidian]

Citric acid acts just like vinegar, it neutralizes the lye and lowers the PH. If the PH gets too low, it won't be soap anymore. Soap naturally has a higher PH.
I don't remember seeing anything about adding citric acid to the shampoo bars but one member did mention she uses citric acid for a hair rinse instead of vinegar.

 

[pattime]

Citric acid acts just like vinegar, it neutralizes the lye and lowers the PH. If the PH gets too low, it won't be soap anymore. Soap naturally has a higher PH.
I don't remember seeing anything about adding citric acid to the shampoo bars but one member did mention she uses citric acid for a hair rinse instead of vinegar.

Thanks so much, I'm glad I asked!

 

[new12soap]

1. I use SL at a rate of 1-1.5% in soap, and I stir it into the water before I add lye, but stirring it in after the lye solution has cooled should work just as well. I have heard of some adding it after the cook in HP.

2. HP does not reduce cure time, it just speeds up saponification and saves morphing of scents since they are added after the cook. You are saving maybe 2 days at the most out of approximately 6 weeks, so I wouldn't say you could reliably count on that to restock quickly.

3. I am sorry I cannot find the link right now, but I read an account of a soaper replacing all the water with apple cider vinegar and his soap turned out lovely. The change in superfat was small enough to be negligible. I know, that is counterintuitive to what we know about basic chemistry, but there you have it. Anecdotal, not data. Since the changes were minimal, I also have to question how much if any benefit it brought to the soap. I would be tempted to give it a try and see what happens.

 

[DeeAnna]

Up to a point, a soap will still be soap even if a person adds some acid, so, yes, it can be done. But if a soaper does so blindly, she's basically playing a guessing game about how much acid she can add and "get away with it".

For example, suppose I use commercial vinegar (5% acetic acid) for all of the "water" in my favorite soap recipe. The reaction between the acetic acid and the sodium hydroxide would end up increasing the superfat in this recipe from my usual 5% to a substantial 12%.

If you use an 8% superfat, as I know many of y'all do, a "vinegar-ized" soap would end up being superfatted closer to 15%. Is that really a "negligible" change?

Citric acid (the acid in lemon juice) is even worse -- one mole of citric acid can neutralize 3 moles of NaOH. One mole of acetic acid only neutralizes 1 mole of NaOH.

 

[jcatblum]

I have just started experimenting with SL in my HP. I only add it after the cook if my batch is not smooth. I don't find that I need it in every batch, but always have it on the counter close by just in case. I am not using SL to create a harder bar, only a smoother less rustic bar.

 

[grayceworks]

I use SL in my CP soaps for a harder bar. Then I add it to my lye-water. Also, I use it to make my HP smoother, and then I add it after the cook.

 

[Miz Jenny]

Thanks y'all! You've given me lots to ponder. Methinks :

Adding acv to soap not a great idea.

Hot process isn't the answer to speeding up curing time and will just be another piece of equipment to clean. :thumbdown:

Sodium lactate is a good thing.

 

[Crombie]

HP

I normally use 1 tsp ppo of SL, but if using softer oils, may use up to 2 tsp. I add to my cooled lye water.

HP soaps can be used immediately on your skin after the cook; however, they will be a harder bar if you wait about two weeks to use. Many CP people say you need to wait about 4 weeks for CP soap, so it does save some time. I am able to use my salt bars after 7 days which I would not be able to do with CP.

HP tips: Use the SL with cooled lye water. At trace, add 1 tsp ppo of glycerin. If you want to do a little swirl, use 39 - 40% water and do not overcook; working quickly to get in mold when it is done. These were made with HP.

 

[Obsidian]

Thank you deeanna. I was hoping you would come along and give us numbers. I wasn't sure how much vinegar would change the SF, now I know.

 

[seven]

I use citric acid on my beer shampoo bar. I got the idea based on a tutorial on soapqueen. She used 1.5% from the total oils. I used 1% only and my sf was low to begin with (2 or 3 me thinks). I'm loving the poo bar so far and i don't need a vinegar rinse.

 

[pattime]

Citric acid acts just like vinegar, it neutralizes the lye and lowers the PH. If the PH gets too low, it won't be soap anymore. Soap naturally has a higher PH.
I don't remember seeing anything about adding citric acid to the shampoo bars but one member did mention she uses citric acid for a hair rinse instead of vinegar.

Decided to look around...I was pretty sure I'd seen some add citric acid and sure enough in the first few pages of Genny's shampoo bar thread there it was.

I'm gonna have to try it, cause that's how I roll BUT....probably not my first try. I'm only going to make a 1# batch for a first try and will be making more SOON if it any kind of works for me. Had plans to make it days ago, but found a FO that's an original Herbal Essence dupe (remember back in the 70's?) and thought that would be perfect in this bar and compliment the rosemary EO I want to add so I'm waiting on that.

I'll report back.

 

[DeeAnna]

Just an update about the citric acid thing. This is from recent talk on Genny's shampoo recipe thread. If you do add citric acid to a recipe, increase your NaOH by 0.6 g for every 1 gram of citric acid you use. This is IN ADDITION to the lye needed for saponification.

For example, a soap recipe requires 100 g NaOH to saponify the fat at 8% superfat. You want to add 15 g citric acid. Calculate the additional NaOH needed for the citric:

15 g citric * (0.6 g NaOH / 1 g citric) = 15 * 0.6 = 9 g NaOH
Total NaOH needed for this recipe = 100 g + 9 g = 109 g