Wonderful pine tar soaps!
- Thread starter Sinful7
- Start date
Help Support Soapmaking Forum:
dillsandwitch
Well-Known Member
Got my pine tar in the mail today. Man that stuff reeks :S I dunno if i wanna put that in soap at all. YUCK!!!!
Does the smell diminish when in the soap?
also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe for this if I decide to go ahead with it?
TIA
Does the smell diminish when in the soap?
also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe for this if I decide to go ahead with it?
TIA
"...Just wondering if anyone has done a salt soap with pine tar? ..."
I haven't. Why don't you try it yourself? Just be ready to pour; PT + salt is going to thicken up really fast.
"...Does the smell diminish when in the soap?..."
It gets less intense with cure, but the smoky/burnt odor does not disappear. It will be a key scent in this soap.
"...also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe..."
In the spirit of teaching a person to fish -- What do YOU think? What superfat do you intend to use? How much water will be in the recipe? Will you add fragrance or other additives? Can you offer any other thoughts about the composition of this particular recipe? What do the soapcalc numbers tell you about the proportions of these fats? Have you soaped with it? Does it come to trace quickly for you as a plain soap? Does the base recipe without pine tar make a soap that is hard and long lived ? Does it make a soap that you like?
PT won't improve a bad soap, so if this recipe doesn't work well for you when made without PT, it won't work any better as a PT soap.
PT will make soap softer especially as you increase the PT above 5% based on oil weight, so the base soap recipe needs to be fairly hard to begin with to avoid trouble with unmolding and cutting.
PT also causes the soap batter to heat up and firm up fast, so the specific fragrance and other additives you choose should not make the soap come to trace any quicker.
I haven't. Why don't you try it yourself? Just be ready to pour; PT + salt is going to thicken up really fast.
"...Does the smell diminish when in the soap?..."
It gets less intense with cure, but the smoky/burnt odor does not disappear. It will be a key scent in this soap.
"...also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe..."
In the spirit of teaching a person to fish -- What do YOU think? What superfat do you intend to use? How much water will be in the recipe? Will you add fragrance or other additives? Can you offer any other thoughts about the composition of this particular recipe? What do the soapcalc numbers tell you about the proportions of these fats? Have you soaped with it? Does it come to trace quickly for you as a plain soap? Does the base recipe without pine tar make a soap that is hard and long lived ? Does it make a soap that you like?
PT won't improve a bad soap, so if this recipe doesn't work well for you when made without PT, it won't work any better as a PT soap.
PT will make soap softer especially as you increase the PT above 5% based on oil weight, so the base soap recipe needs to be fairly hard to begin with to avoid trouble with unmolding and cutting.
PT also causes the soap batter to heat up and firm up fast, so the specific fragrance and other additives you choose should not make the soap come to trace any quicker.
seven
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2013
- Messages
- 2,672
- Reaction score
- 1,437
DeeAnna is right, having a 'hard recipe' helps. my PT soap is high in palm, and i can unmold it within the 24 hour period, just like my other soaps. i am using 10% PT.
as for adding salt, i haven't done it. so far, i see no point in it. those who bought my PT soaps are people with skin problems, thus i'd like to make the soap as simple as possible. at first, i thought about adding additives into it, like oatmeal or aloe vera, but finally settled on a simple PT soap. so, my PT soap is just oils, water, lye, and PT.
as for adding salt, i haven't done it. so far, i see no point in it. those who bought my PT soaps are people with skin problems, thus i'd like to make the soap as simple as possible. at first, i thought about adding additives into it, like oatmeal or aloe vera, but finally settled on a simple PT soap. so, my PT soap is just oils, water, lye, and PT.
I'd have to say that the folks I've talked to who are looking for pine tar soap are into it for the pine tar ... just the pine tar ... and nothing but the pine tar. 
lpstephy85
Well-Known Member
I'd have to say that the folks I've talked to who are looking for pine tar soap are into it for the pine tar ... just the pine tar ... and nothing but the pine tar.
So help me soap gods! Sorry, had to do it
!!!!!
dillsandwitch
Well-Known Member
I have so far only made 2 batches of soap. both were 80% OO and 20% CO. So far so good on them. they are getting harder everyday and from my test bits they lather and wash pretty good.
I got my palm oil and castor oil in the post today. YAY.
Ive run some numbers in soap calc and i think i have a decent recipe as far as the numbers go. I was planning to add some lavender EO to the lot. Heres what I came up with. Any feedback is welcome.
I got my palm oil and castor oil in the post today. YAY.
Ive run some numbers in soap calc and i think i have a decent recipe as far as the numbers go. I was planning to add some lavender EO to the lot. Heres what I came up with. Any feedback is welcome.
soapshark2013
Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2013
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 1
99% rubbing alcohol
has anyone used the alcohol to spritz on the tops of soap and is the 99% the right strength? seems I read this somewhere, but I'm having difficulty finding the product...only found 91%,is the same? thanks in advance...
has anyone used the alcohol to spritz on the tops of soap and is the 99% the right strength? seems I read this somewhere, but I'm having difficulty finding the product...only found 91%,is the same? thanks in advance...
Dills ... Your recipe looks good. Nice work!
I'm picking nits here ... so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I'd happily make your recipe as-is. Seriously.
Your recipe will make a fairly cleansing soap that may not last quite as long as you might like. If you want a longer lasting soap that is still physically hard, but a bit milder to the skin, you could reduce the coconut oil and the olive a bit and increase the palm. Try to get the palmitic + stearic somewhere between 25-30 as well as keep the hardness in the upper 30s to 40 range. I'd leave the castor at 5%.
I like your choice of fats -- classic and effective. This blend will make a nice rich lather that will feel good on the skin. The pine tar seems to increase lather, so if you tweak the recipe and lose a few points on the "bubbly" and/or "creamy" scores, not to worry. By lowering the coconut, the bubbly score will go down, but that shouldn't be a real problem in the real-life soap.
I'm picking nits here ... so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I'd happily make your recipe as-is. Seriously.
Your recipe will make a fairly cleansing soap that may not last quite as long as you might like. If you want a longer lasting soap that is still physically hard, but a bit milder to the skin, you could reduce the coconut oil and the olive a bit and increase the palm. Try to get the palmitic + stearic somewhere between 25-30 as well as keep the hardness in the upper 30s to 40 range. I'd leave the castor at 5%.
I like your choice of fats -- classic and effective. This blend will make a nice rich lather that will feel good on the skin. The pine tar seems to increase lather, so if you tweak the recipe and lose a few points on the "bubbly" and/or "creamy" scores, not to worry. By lowering the coconut, the bubbly score will go down, but that shouldn't be a real problem in the real-life soap.
dillsandwitch
Well-Known Member
Thanks DeeAnna Being so new at this I dont want to be going and wasting oils and such if the recipe I use isn't a decent one, if you get my meaning there. I really appreciate the help you have given me here. I think I will leave the recipe as is for now and see how it all goes. Tweaking can always come later after I feel more confidant with things.
Hopefully I will get some time to try this during the week. Now if anyone could help me with getting more free time that would be the ticket. hahahahaha.
Being so new at this I dont want to be going and wasting oils and such if the recipe I use isn't a decent one, if you get my meaning there. I really appreciate the help you have given me here. I think I will leave the recipe as is for now and see how it all goes. Tweaking can always come later after I feel more confidant with things.Hopefully I will get some time to try this during the week. Now if anyone could help me with getting more free time that would be the ticket. hahahahaha.
My pine tar is on the way. Going off the posts above with DeeAnna's advice about the stearic numbers, I came up with this one, I'm hoping it'll work up well.
Coconut Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%
Olive Oil 30%
Kokum Butter 35%
Pine Tar, 10%
The numbers look good in SoapCalc, let's see how it translates into real life!
Hardness 42
Cleansing 13
Conditioning 44
Bubbly 18
Creamy 33
Iodine 44
INS 142
Coconut Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%
Olive Oil 30%
Kokum Butter 35%
Pine Tar, 10%
The numbers look good in SoapCalc, let's see how it translates into real life!
Hardness 42
Cleansing 13
Conditioning 44
Bubbly 18
Creamy 33
Iodine 44
INS 142
Ann -- That's pretty close, as far as the numbers go, to the recipe I use for PT soap. I use a 33% lye solution concentration and just plain water. The soap is firm enough to gently unmold 12-18 hours after pouring. I let the loaf air out in the open for another 6-12 hours before cutting so the outside is a wee bit firmer. The cured soap is mild to the skin, lathers well, and seems to last a goodly while. I also use 10% PT. I hope you like how it turns out!
DeeAnna, what do you think about what I'm hearing, that to be effective, the pine tar needs to be 20%. I'm thinking that's hooey, but I wanted a more expert opinion on it - if you would be so kind
Ann --
Little research has been done on the efficacy of pine tar, but the studies I have uncovered showed PT had little or no effect on helping skin problems. That said, there are decades of anecdotal stories that say PT does have some benefit for some skin issues.
"Grandpa's" pine tar soap gets glowing reviews on Amazon, but I am pretty sure it has a low % of PT. The makers of this particular product don't disclose the exact amount but my opinion is that it's under 5%. The color of the soap is telling, at least in my opinion. "Grandpa's" is a honey color, not a dark brown or near black color like most handcrafted PT soaps with 10% or more PT.
So is the placebo effect alive and well? Or is there something to it? I really don't know.
What I can say is that if a PT soap is truly going to be helpful for a skin condition, then ~how~ one uses the soap might be just as effective as the % of PT in the soap. If you lather up and rinse off, as most people use soap in the bath, there will be very little time for the PT to have any effect, good or bad. If you lather up and let the suds stay on the skin for some time, then a soap with even a low % of PT might have some beneficial effect.
I make soap with 10% PT, but mainly because my husband likes the smell. He uses PT soap nearly every day. I'm not so fond of the odor, but I have used the soap myself on occasion. I can't say I see any difference on his skin or mine, good or bad, but we also don't have any of the skin troubles that PT is supposed to help.
I would have to say I'm open-mindedly skeptical about the benefits of PT soap. :think: That's rather a mixed metaphor, but it's the best way to describe where I stand (or not!) on pine tar in soap.
Little research has been done on the efficacy of pine tar, but the studies I have uncovered showed PT had little or no effect on helping skin problems. That said, there are decades of anecdotal stories that say PT does have some benefit for some skin issues.
"Grandpa's" pine tar soap gets glowing reviews on Amazon, but I am pretty sure it has a low % of PT. The makers of this particular product don't disclose the exact amount but my opinion is that it's under 5%. The color of the soap is telling, at least in my opinion. "Grandpa's" is a honey color, not a dark brown or near black color like most handcrafted PT soaps with 10% or more PT.
So is the placebo effect alive and well? Or is there something to it? I really don't know.
What I can say is that if a PT soap is truly going to be helpful for a skin condition, then ~how~ one uses the soap might be just as effective as the % of PT in the soap. If you lather up and rinse off, as most people use soap in the bath, there will be very little time for the PT to have any effect, good or bad. If you lather up and let the suds stay on the skin for some time, then a soap with even a low % of PT might have some beneficial effect.
I make soap with 10% PT, but mainly because my husband likes the smell. He uses PT soap nearly every day. I'm not so fond of the odor, but I have used the soap myself on occasion. I can't say I see any difference on his skin or mine, good or bad, but we also don't have any of the skin troubles that PT is supposed to help.
I would have to say I'm open-mindedly skeptical about the benefits of PT soap. :think: That's rather a mixed metaphor, but it's the best way to describe where I stand (or not!) on pine tar in soap.
Well, that's kinda how I feel about most of these additives, but the placebo effect seems to sell soap - and other concoctions Ok, I'm not going to go with the 'firm believers', I'm going to go with the recipe!
Ok, I'm not going to go with the 'firm believers', I'm going to go with the recipe!
In the old soapmaking books from the mid 1800s through the early 1900s, there are often recipes for medicinal soaps. Some of the medicinal ingredients included mercury and arsenic (yikes!), zinc, salicylic acid, thymol, camphor, bromine, coal tar, pine tar, turpentine, sulfur, phenol (carbolic acid), peroxide, witch hazel, iodine, formaldehyde, tannin, etc.
Bear in mind that many of these medicinal soaps were used in the days when germ theory was unknown or in its infancy, and there were few if any antibiotics available. Formaldehyde, phenol, and iodine were harsh disinfectants that were the best option of the day. These chemicals and heavy metals like mercury deserve to be retired from common use now that we have safer, milder, and effective alternatives.
One author of the day noted:
"...Soap is often used for the conveyance of various medicants, antiseptics or other material presumably beneficial for treatment of skin diseases. While soap is an ideal medium for the carrying of such materials, it is an unfortunate condition that when incorporated with the soap, all but a very few of the numerous substances thus employed lose their medicinal properties and effectiveness for curing skin disorders, as well as any antiseptic value the substance may have.
"Soap is of such a nature chemically that many of the substances used for skin troubles are either entirely decomposed or altered to such an extent so as to impair their therapeutic value. Thus many of the claims made for various medicated soaps fall flat, and really have no more antiseptic or therapeutic merit than ordinary soap which in itself has certain germicidal and cleaning value.
"In medicating a soap, the material used for this purpose is usually added at the mill. A tallow and cocoanut oil base is best adapted for a soap of this type...."
From E G Thomssen, Soap-making Manual, 1922.
Another author cautioned:
"...Every soapmaker engaged in the preparation of medicated soaps is aware of the painstaking care and accuracy required to make soaps according to a physician's prescription and, although many manufacturers turn out an excellent product, there are many so-called medicated soaps brought into commerce which do not deserve the name, since they frequently contain not even a trace of efficacious substances.
"Again, we find other medicated soaps which are inoperative on account of ignorance as regards the decomposition of the chemical agents added to the soap. In many iodine soaps, for instance, a small addition of potassium iodide is found, biit no sodium hyposulphite, which is absolutely necessary to render the iodine eflBcacious.
"And, thus there are many other soaps, which from a want of sufficient chemical knowledge are not properly composed, and, instead of having a soothing and healing effect in skin diseases, promote the diseased state...."
From C Diete, The Soap Maker's Handbook..., 1912.
Bear in mind that many of these medicinal soaps were used in the days when germ theory was unknown or in its infancy, and there were few if any antibiotics available. Formaldehyde, phenol, and iodine were harsh disinfectants that were the best option of the day. These chemicals and heavy metals like mercury deserve to be retired from common use now that we have safer, milder, and effective alternatives.
One author of the day noted:
"...Soap is often used for the conveyance of various medicants, antiseptics or other material presumably beneficial for treatment of skin diseases. While soap is an ideal medium for the carrying of such materials, it is an unfortunate condition that when incorporated with the soap, all but a very few of the numerous substances thus employed lose their medicinal properties and effectiveness for curing skin disorders, as well as any antiseptic value the substance may have.
"Soap is of such a nature chemically that many of the substances used for skin troubles are either entirely decomposed or altered to such an extent so as to impair their therapeutic value. Thus many of the claims made for various medicated soaps fall flat, and really have no more antiseptic or therapeutic merit than ordinary soap which in itself has certain germicidal and cleaning value.
"In medicating a soap, the material used for this purpose is usually added at the mill. A tallow and cocoanut oil base is best adapted for a soap of this type...."
From E G Thomssen, Soap-making Manual, 1922.
Another author cautioned:
"...Every soapmaker engaged in the preparation of medicated soaps is aware of the painstaking care and accuracy required to make soaps according to a physician's prescription and, although many manufacturers turn out an excellent product, there are many so-called medicated soaps brought into commerce which do not deserve the name, since they frequently contain not even a trace of efficacious substances.
"Again, we find other medicated soaps which are inoperative on account of ignorance as regards the decomposition of the chemical agents added to the soap. In many iodine soaps, for instance, a small addition of potassium iodide is found, biit no sodium hyposulphite, which is absolutely necessary to render the iodine eflBcacious.
"And, thus there are many other soaps, which from a want of sufficient chemical knowledge are not properly composed, and, instead of having a soothing and healing effect in skin diseases, promote the diseased state...."
From C Diete, The Soap Maker's Handbook..., 1912.
I was going to say that all of my soaps contain traces of efficacious substances, but it really doesn't sound right!
The milling point is a good one and we all know that the lye monster is ever hungry and takes no care of things like additives and infusions - very interesting to see that this is not a new thought at all.
Also interesting to see that some people making false claims is also not new. There has always been snake oil!
DeeAnna, you do find some of the most wonderful quotes and things from these old soaping books. I love the thought of you in your library leafing through these yellowed tomes, glass of wine reflecting the fire light.
The milling point is a good one and we all know that the lye monster is ever hungry and takes no care of things like additives and infusions - very interesting to see that this is not a new thought at all.
Also interesting to see that some people making false claims is also not new. There has always been snake oil!
DeeAnna, you do find some of the most wonderful quotes and things from these old soaping books. I love the thought of you in your library leafing through these yellowed tomes, glass of wine reflecting the fire light.
