Wine soap seized before I poured the wine?

[Spice]

This was weird, I was making a wine soap and the batter seized before I poured the wine. That shouldn't happen. Last nite I made a 3 lb loaf with the same recipe and that loaf turned out great. Today that same recipe seized.
The lye was rt, but I noticed floaties, so I stirred the lye water. I notice it heated up quick because I could feel the heat through my groves.
I dont boil my wine, so I needed to bring the lye water and oils to a false trace, this would give me time to get the wine mixed into the oils.

I poured rt lye, and stirred it the lye water, I did not use a sb. I looked away and that's when it started to seize. So I panicked and poured the wine into it, the soap batter that had my color was also seizing.

Once I stirred in the wine it actually loosen that batter enough to get some of the colorant poured into the batter, but I had to quickly pour the batter into my mold.

I believe the lye water was to hot, stirring is what got the lye water to react. I am thinking. Here is my recipe

have 53 oz of oil
Noah 8.1 oz
water 10.8 oz(30%)
Wine 8.1 oz (40%)

I actually got some soaps into the mould. :headbanging:

 

[shunt2011]

I'm a bit confused, you said you were using RT lye so after mixing the lye into the liquid you would have let it sit till cool. So, how would it be too hot? I always stir my lye before pouring and it's always RT as I either masterbatch it or make it the night before. Can you clarify....maybe I missed something.

 

[Arimara]

Are you sure you didn't mis-measure anywhere? If the recipe is a proven one then I can't see why this happened unless you added a new element or mixed up a step somewhere.

 

[penelopejane]

What is RT lye?
So you are mixing the batter from a recipe with only 1/2 the amount of water (you have held back the wine)?

It might be a good idea to mix the lye water. Wait till it's cool. Add the wine to the lye mix and then add the oils.

 

[Arimara]

What is RT lye?
So you are mixing the batter from a recipe with only 1/2 the amount of water (you have held back the wine)?

It might be a good idea to mix the lye water. Wait till it's cool. Add the wine to the lye mix and then add the oils.

I took it to mean room temperature.

 

[Spice]

This was weird, I was making a wine soap and the batter seized before I poured the wine. That shouldn't happen. Last nite I made a 3 lb loaf with the same recipe and that loaf turned out great. Today that same recipe seized.
The lye was rt, but I noticed floaties, so I stirred the lye water. I notice it heated up quick because I could feel the heat through my groves.
I dont boil my wine, so I needed to bring the lye water and oils to a false trace, this would give me time to get the wine mixed into the oils.

I poured rt lye, and stirred it the lye water, I did not use a sb. I looked away and that's when it started to seize. So I panicked and poured the wine into it, the soap batter that had my color was also seizing.

Once I stirred in the wine it actually loosen that batter enough to get some of the colorant poured into the batter, but I had to quickly pour the batter into my mold.

I believe the lye water was to hot, stirring is what got the lye water to react. I am thinking. Here is my recipe

have 53 oz of oil
Noah 8.1 oz
water 10.8 oz(30%)
Wine 8.1 oz (40%)

I actually got some soaps into the mould. :headbanging:

I'm a bit confused, you said you were using RT lye so after mixing the lye into the liquid you would have let it sit till cool. So, how would it be too hot? I always stir my lye before pouring and it's always RT as I either masterbatch it or make it the night before. Can you clarify....maybe I missed something.

Yeah, I let it sit too, the lye mixture was made the night before, when I poured the lye, I stirred to make sure there was no chunks of lye, I noticed it heated up. I could feel the heat through my gloves. Normally I give it a stir...this time I stirred and stirred and stirred. So I figured it was the stirring that caused it to heat. I poured the lye mix anyway. I should have at least checked to see what temp it was at. It was a thick mixture, I managed to get the soap in the mold, will see what happen today.

 

[Spice]

Are you sure you didn't mis-measure anywhere? If the recipe is a proven one then I can't see why this happened unless you added a new element or mixed up a step somewhere.

I thought about that, and even when I was measuring I asked myself if I had measured correctly. The only element I added that is new is Kaolin clay. I added a teaspoon to the oils and mixed with a stick blender before adding the lye. I've been doing it this way for regular soap, this is the first time for wine though that I've used the clay. I did noticed that the first batch started to separate some, but it turned out fine. I will take pictures today and post.

 

[Spice]

What is RT lye?
So you are mixing the batter from a recipe with only 1/2 the amount of water (you have held back the wine)?

It might be a good idea to mix the lye water. Wait till it's cool. Add the wine to the lye mix and then add the oils.

rt for room temp lye.

That is an idea, I will do a test batch for adding the wine to the lye water. I held back the wine because that is the way I learned how to make the wine soap. When it comes to soap making there are 6 ways to Sunday.

 

[toxikon]

Yeah, I think we need some clarification.

The lye was rt, but I noticed floaties, so I stirred the lye water.

You should always stir your lye into your liquid until its dissolved. You don't just pour the lye into the water and leave it.

so I needed to bring the lye water and oils to a false trace

I don't know if "false trace" is the word you're looking for? False trace is usually used to describe something going wrong in your soap to make you believe it's tracing when it isn't. Normal stages would be: emulsion (liquidy), light trace, medium trace, heavy trace.

I poured rt lye, and stirred it the lye water, I did not use a sb.

I assume you mean "oils" instead of "lye water" here? So you poured your room temperature lye solution into your oils, correct? What temperature were your oils?

I believe the lye water was to hot, stirring is what got the lye water to react.

How would the lye water be too hot if it was room temperature?

Sorry, this is all very confusing to read. We also need to know what oils you used and their weights to help more.

 

[shunt2011]

The only think I can think of then is that maybe you mismeasured something. I've never had my lye heat back up from stirring so that's interesting for sure.

 

[cmzaha]

rt for room temp lye.

That is an idea, I will do a test batch for adding the wine to the lye water. I held back the wine because that is the way I learned how to make the wine soap. When it comes to soap making there are 6 ways to Sunday.

I would not add the wine, which does not have the alcohol cooked off to the lye water. All the sugar and alcohol in the wine can cause a volcano. I simply would not trust doing it. I am not really sure if the alcohol contributes to the volcano but I do know wine & lye can volcano quickly from overheating.

I always materbatch 50/50 lye/water, so I always soap with RT lye solution, it has never heated up from stirring. A 50/50 solution will be thicker and not as clear as less concentrated lye solutions.

 

[Spice]

Yeah, I think we need some clarification.



You should always stir your lye into your liquid until its dissolved. You don't just pour the lye into the water and leave it.



I don't know if "false trace" is the word you're looking for? False trace is usually used to describe something going wrong in your soap to make you believe it's tracing when it isn't. Normal stages would be: emulsion (liquidy), light trace, medium trace, heavy trace.



I assume you mean "oils" instead of "lye water" here? So you poured your room temperature lye solution into your oils, correct? What temperature were your oils?



How would the lye water be too hot if it was room temperature?

Sorry, this is all very confusing to read. We also need to know what oils you used and their weights to help more.

Sorry about the confusion. I was going for the light trac to avoid my oils from seizing.
Here is my Recipe and weights:
Coco 19.1 oz
OO 18.0 oz
Castor .50 oz
Soy bean 6.90
Almond 4.25
Grape 4.25
and I use Cocoa powder with sunflower oil (.50oz) to mix the cocoa colorant. I used a Clove blend, with clove 50%, bergamot 25% and Eucalyptus 25%. With a Kaolin clay of a teaspoon.

I dissolved my lye and stirred when I measured out the lye and water, I meant to say I stirred and stirred and stirred...I think I over stirred the next day when I was about to pour the lye into my oils.

 

[cmzaha]

Clove will seize big time. After lye solution is mixed well it does not need a lot of stirring before use. False trace happens when soap to cool with a high percentage of hard oils lard, tallow, palm etc, and or butters. The oils are starting to re-solidify making you think it is at trace, when it really is not. Once the lye reacts and heats up the batter will liquify and you bring it to a normal trace.

 

[shunt2011]

I think it's the high CO and then using Clove. Clove makes things move quickly.

 

[Obsidian]

That is a lot of clove, have you used it at that amount before?

 

[penelopejane]

I would not add the wine, which does not have the alcohol cooked off to the lye water. All the sugar and alcohol in the wine can cause a volcano. I simply would not trust doing it. I am not really sure if the alcohol contributes to the volcano but I do know wine & lye can volcano quickly from overheating.

I always materbatch 50/50 lye/water, so I always soap with RT lye solution, it has never heated up from stirring. A 50/50 solution will be thicker and not as clear as less concentrated lye solutions.

Good point about the alcohol and lye. So to avoid the lye reacting with the oils too quickly because of the lack of liquid should she mix the wine with the oils and then mix in the lye?

 

[Spice]

I would not add the wine, which does not have the alcohol cooked off to the lye water. All the sugar and alcohol in the wine can cause a volcano. I simply would not trust doing it. I am not really sure if the alcohol contributes to the volcano but I do know wine & lye can volcano quickly from overheating.

I always materbatch 50/50 lye/water, so I always soap with RT lye solution, it has never heated up from stirring. A 50/50 solution will be thicker and not as clear as less concentrated lye solutions.

From the lack of water, I did noticed it was less clear. I have stirred before and nothing ever happen.

Sorry about the confusion. I was going for the light trac to avoid my oils from seizing.
Here is my Recipe and weights:
Coco 19.1 oz
OO 18.0 oz
Castor .50 oz
Soy bean 6.90
Almond 4.25
Grape 4.25
and I use Cocoa powder with sunflower oil (.50oz) to mix the cocoa colorant. I used a Clove blend, with clove 50%, bergamot 25% and Eucalyptus 25%. With a Kaolin clay of a teaspoon.

I dissolved my lye and stirred when I measured out the lye and water, I meant to say I stirred and stirred and stirred...I think I over stirred the next day when I was about to pour the lye into my oils.

Clove will seize big time. After lye solution is mixed well it does not need a lot of stirring before use. False trace happens when soap to cool with a high percentage of hard oils lard, tallow, palm etc, and or butters. The oils are starting to re-solidify making you think it is at trace, when it really is not. Once the lye reacts and heats up the batter will liquify and you bring it to a normal trace.

I was wondering about the Clove myself, and from your description of false trace, It never liquify after I added the wine, plus I had a small amount sat aside for the colorant that had no wine, and that seized too.

I think it's the high CO and then using Clove. Clove makes things move quickly.

I wonder if its the clove then?

That is a lot of clove, have you used it at that amount before?

That is my first time for clove, I wonder if clove gets stronger with time? I say that because when I blended the clove, it was 24 hrs of it sitting before using, when I mixed the eo blend nothing happen, but when I added the wine, I noticed that the oils were beginning to separate, I was able to mix well enough to pour into my mold. This last time, however, that same eo blend, was now 48 hrs old. Is it possible that then eo blend got stronger?

Good point about the alcohol and lye. So to avoid the lye reacting with the oils too quickly because of the lack of liquid should she mix the wine with the oils and then mix in the lye?

Or do more water and less wine, this way my lye mix wouldn't be so thick. I am just thinking it was the blend because I've used this recipe many times before.

 

[Spice]

here are some pictures. the small bowl is what i could not add to the soap after it seized, I cut them up and will use as imbeds in an other batch. The last picture is of the first mold I made. I wonder if what I see is the oil separation. I see little dots.

 

[IrishLass]

In regards to the lye solution getting hotter when you stirred it right before adding it to your oils... was your stirring utensil 100% clean and dry, or did you happen to stir something else with it immediately beforehand without cleaning it off? If you used it to stir something else without cleaning and drying it before stirring the lye solution, it wouldn't surprise me at all that the solution warmed up some. But if it was clean/dry, I have no idea why it would have heated up. Mine never does that unless I add something extra to the solution.

The only element I added that is new is Kaolin clay. I added a teaspoon to the oils and mixed with a stick blender before adding the lye

Besides the clove EO (which is a notoriously naughty accelerator), I believe the clay you added to this particular batch may also have played role in how fast things moved, due to it's super absorbency powers- especially in light of the fact that you were basically adding a severely reduced amount of liquid to your oils at first (before adding the wine). I'm thinking the absorbent clay sucked some of that water into itself, in effect increasing your lye concentration (the higher the lye concentration added to ones oils, the quicker the soap batter will come to thick trace).

The white dots look like classic stearic spots to me.


IrishLass

 

[cmzaha]

When using clove I usually keep it around 2-3% since it is a potential irritant. Knowing me that is unusual for me since I even use peppermint at 6%, but I have a healthy respect for clove and cinnamon in soap