Why is this not zappy?

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

I don’t know where my brain was at when I was making this. I was trying a new recipe and had accidentally clicked on masterbatched lye. I was so hyper focused on double checking my weights against the recipe and writing down the actual weight that it didn’t click that not only did I hit the wrong button, but my eyes skipped a line and I did a 50/50 lye concentration. I blended to a stable emulsion and about a minute or two everything started to go really thick. I could barely pull the dividers out of the mold. After a lot of very colorful words I checked to see where it went wrong. I was seeing a rebatch in my future for sure! Now things really get strange. I zap tested all 4 colors this morning and no zap. I don’t understand how! Any thoughts from the experts? Recipe attached for your viewing pleasure

 

[dibbles]

Running your recipe through soapCalc at a 50% lye concentration and 5% superfat the amount of liquid and lye used is fine. I suspect the relatively high temps, soy wax and shea combined at 25% and the high lye concentration contributed to the acceleration. A fragrance oil that may not accelerate at a lower lye concentration can become a different animal at 50%. I wouldn't expect this to zap unless there were unincorporated lye pockets, or I am misunderstanding what you did.

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

Running your recipe through soapCalc at a 50% lye concentration and 5% superfat the amount of liquid and lye used is fine. I suspect the relatively high temps, soy wax and shea combined at 25% and the high lye concentration contributed to the acceleration. A fragrance oil that may not accelerate at a lower lye concentration can become a different animal at 50%. I wouldn't expect this to zap unless there were unincorporated lye pockets, or I am misunderstanding what you did.

Thanks! I thought that a 50% lye solution was a no no and would result in a lye heavy soap. At least I got really straight vertical lines

 

[Ekuzo]

I second what dibbles said. You have 70% hard fats (which means more saturated) and 50% lye concentration (the water is just bare minimum). Additionally, soy wax has much more stearic acid than other hard oils/fats and the temperature at which you soaped is relatively high (because of the soy wax - maybe even not high enough, since you mentioned it was going solid on the sides of the bowl). Also, castor oil, even if not much. All those conditions are accelerators in my book. So it's not a surprise that it got solid quickly the way it did. But worry not, your soap should be fine - because of the accelerators and the high temperature the saponification was over quickly and you didn't get any zap, which is normal. As long as all the caustic soda was dissolved and there were no crystals left (it always helps to strain the lye solution before pouring into the oils, just to be safe) so no lye pockets are present - it's just normal soap, safe to use (after some cure, of course). The beauty of the water discount you did is that there will be less water to evaporate which will speed up the curing process a little bit - combined with the high hard fat percentage, it will probably be good for use in a month or so. Still, be careful with the water discount, it's usually better to not go higher than a 40-45% lye solution.

Hope that was helpful!

 

[Ekuzo]

About the straight lines you got - that's what you wanted, right? It all turned out well at the end, I guess

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

About the straight lines you got - that's what you wanted, right? It all turned out well at the end, I guess

I was going for a Tiwan swirl, but I’ll take a straight line instead!!!

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

Running your recipe through soapCalc at a 50% lye concentration and 5% superfat the amount of liquid and lye used is fine. I suspect the relatively high temps, soy wax and shea combined at 25% and the high lye concentration contributed to the acceleration. A fragrance oil that may not accelerate at a lower lye concentration can become a different animal at 50%. I wouldn't expect this to zap unless there were unincorporated lye pockets, or I am misunderstanding what you did.

One more question, I tried an end piece and it already feels lovely, it was like washing my hands in silk. I really feel it was the lard/ soy wax combo, I don’t get the same without the lard. What can I change to make this more workable? I also did a batch with the 33% concentration I normally use and it acted about the same. On paper the numbers look about the same for the values, so I have no good ideas

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

I second what dibbles said. You have 70% hard fats (which means more saturated) and 50% lye concentration (the water is just bare minimum). Additionally, soy wax has much more stearic acid than other hard oils/fats and the temperature at which you soaped is relatively high (because of the soy wax - maybe even not high enough, since you mentioned it was going solid on the sides of the bowl). Also, castor oil, even if not much. All those conditions are accelerators in my book. So it's not a surprise that it got solid quickly the way it did. But worry not, your soap should be fine - because of the accelerators and the high temperature the saponification was over quickly and you didn't get any zap, which is normal. As long as all the caustic soda was dissolved and there were no crystals left (it always helps to strain the lye solution before pouring into the oils, just to be safe) so no lye pockets are present - it's just normal soap, safe to use (after some cure, of course). The beauty of the water discount you did is that there will be less water to evaporate which will speed up the curing process a little bit - combined with the high hard fat percentage, it will probably be good for use in a month or so. Still, be careful with the water discount, it's usually better to not go higher than a 40-45% lye solution.

Hope that was helpful!

I just cut it and no crystals….phew!!!! I don’t have a good grasp on water discounts yet, but yay!!! More excuses to make more soap! I’ve got over 30 batches under my belt so far ( can you tell what I do with my time off???) My DH said if we ever had a flood they could just follow the bubbles to our house

 

[Ekuzo]

One more question, I tried an end piece and it already feels lovely, it was like washing my hands in silk. I really feel it was the lard/ soy wax combo, I don’t get the same without the lard. What can I change to make this more workable? I also did a batch with the 33% concentration I normally use and it acted about the same. On paper the numbers look about the same for the values, so I have no good ideas

Do the opposite of what you did (one of those suggestions or a combination of them, whatever works for you, just experiment):

-try dropping down the lye concentration even to 30% (25% being the minimum which I don't suggest for CP);
-drop the hard fats (to something like 40-45% instead of 70%);
-you can remove the wax from the recipe. Tbh, soy wax plays a big role here and doing a swirl with it included will be very tricky;
-if you remove the wax, you can soap at a way cooler temperature - like 30-35 Celsius (that's less than 100 Fahrenheit);
-you can add a little bit of citric acid, which in my experience slows down trace.

Others may suggest more stuff, ymmv - just try and see what and how you like it, good luck!

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

Do the opposite of what you did (one of those suggestions or a combination of them, whatever works for you, just experiment):

-try dropping down the lye concentration even to 30% (25% being the minimum which I don't suggest for CP);
-drop the hard fats (to something like 40-45% instead of 70%);
-you can remove the wax from the recipe. Tbh, soy wax plays a big role here and doing a swirl with it included will be very tricky;
-if you remove the wax, you can soap at a way cooler temperature - like 30-35 Celsius (that's less than 100 Fahrenheit);
-you can add a little bit of citric acid, which in my experience slows down trace.

Others may suggest more stuff, ymmv - just try and see what and how you like it, good luck!

I do great with the soy wax in my other recipes, swirls and all, the lard just doesn’t want the play with the soy! I use soy instead of palm, or lard instead of palm. I’m thinking maybe lower the soy and upping the OO, but then it defeats trying to lower the cost of the olive. RBO is as expensive as olive, so adding that is not an option. Maybe it’s just not meant to be, or just a plain old one color soap. I guess a girl can’t have her cake and eat it too!!!

 

[Ekuzo]

I do great with the soy wax in my other recipes, swirls and all, the lard just doesn’t want the play with the soy! I use soy instead of palm, or lard instead of palm. I’m thinking maybe lower the soy and upping the OO, but then it defeats trying to lower the cost of the olive. RBO is as expensive as olive, so adding that is not an option. Maybe it’s just not meant to be, or just a plain old one color soap. I guess a girl can’t have her cake and eat it too!!!

Hmmmm do you have access to high oleic sunflower oil? It has similar qualities to OO and the price is usually lower

 

[Tammyfarms]

I started to reply then deleted it because I’m not sure it was helpful after reading the other comments but then decided to reply as it doesn’t seem your initial question was answered and now I am wondering if I understand. Whew, that’s a long sentence!
If I’m understanding correctly, the soap isn’t lye heavy (zappy) because the amount of lye used was appropriate for the amount of oils, but less water was used. 50/50 refers to the concentration of lye to water, not lye to oils. I would think the higher concentration would also cause faster trace but she commented that 33% lye concentration also had a fast trace.
Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[AliOop]

I started to reply then deleted it because I’m not sure it was helpful after reading the other comments but then decided to reply as it doesn’t seem your initial question was answered and now I am wondering if I understand. Whew, that’s a long sentence!
If I’m understanding correctly, the soap isn’t lye heavy (zappy) because the amount of lye used was appropriate for the amount of oils, but less water was used. 50/50 refers to the concentration of lye to water, not lye to oils. I would think the higher concentration would also cause faster trace but she commented that 33% lye concentration also had a fast trace.
Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes.

Also, sometimes higher lye concentration slows down trace. For me and my typical recipe, it's a bell curve. Speed of trace is about the same at 33% and 40%, but it rises significantly in between there. In other words, a little faster at 34-35%, lots faster at 36-37%, and slowing down again to just a little faster at 38-39%.

Of course, other things that affect trace will still do so. The effects of increased heat, clays, oxides, FOs, and stickblending are more dramatic for me when there is less water. But if I'm not using any of those, the speed of trace is really similar at 33% and 40%. If I go above 40%, I have to hand-stir because even one pulse of the stickblender accelerates things too fast for my liking.

 

[Tammyfarms]

Yes.

Also, sometimes higher lye concentration slows down trace. For me and my typical recipe, it's a bell curve. Speed of trace is about the same at 33% and 40%, but it rises significantly in between there. In other words, a little faster at 34-35%, lots faster at 36-37%, and slowing down again to just a little faster at 38-39%.

Of course, other things that affect trace will still do so. The effects of increased heat, clays, oxides, FOs, and stickblending are more dramatic for me when there is less water. But if I'm not using any of those, the speed of trace is really similar at 33% and 40%. If I go above 40%, I have to hand-stir because even one pulse of the stickblender accelerates things too fast for my liking.

Thank you! So. Much. To. Learn!
When people ask me about learning to soap I usually say it’s pretty easy to make a basic soap but it can also be extremely difficult. The more I learn the more I realize I have so much more to learn.

 

[AliOop]

Thank you! So. Much. To. Learn!
When people ask me about learning to soap I usually say it’s pretty easy to make a basic soap but it can also be extremely difficult. The more I learn the more I realize I have so much more to learn.

AMEN! I am constantly amazed at how far down a rabbit hole I can go with just SOAP. Add in lotions, shampoo bars, etc... endless! Part of what makes it fun for me.

 

[Ekuzo]

Yes.

Also, sometimes higher lye concentration slows down trace. For me and my typical recipe, it's a bell curve. Speed of trace is about the same at 33% and 40%, but it rises significantly in between there. In other words, a little faster at 34-35%, lots faster at 36-37%, and slowing down again to just a little faster at 38-39%.

Of course, other things that affect trace will still do so. The effects of increased heat, clays, oxides, FOs, and stickblending are more dramatic for me when there is less water. But if I'm not using any of those, the speed of trace is really similar at 33% and 40%. If I go above 40%, I have to hand-stir because even one pulse of the stickblender accelerates things too fast for my liking.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention she could hand stir to make it set slower!

Gosh, those results on the concentration-acceleration relation you mention (say that 5 times fast lol) are some serious and deep stuff, I can only wonder how many batches you made with that in mind, how many notes you took and stuff, that's amazing!

 

[Tammyfarms]

AMEN! I am constantly amazed at how far down a rabbit hole I can go with just SOAP. Add in lotions, shampoo bars, etc... endless! Part of what makes it fun for me.

Same! Always something new to learn.

Gosh, those results on the concentration-acceleration relation you mention (say that 5 times fast lol) are some serious and deep stuff, I can only wonder how many batches you made with that in mind, how many notes you took and stuff, that's amazing!

Yes! @AliOop is amazing!

 

[linne1gi]

I don’t know where my brain was at when I was making this. I was trying a new recipe and had accidentally clicked on masterbatched lye. I was so hyper focused on double checking my weights against the recipe and writing down the actual weight that it didn’t click that not only did I hit the wrong button, but my eyes skipped a line and I did a 50/50 lye concentration. I blended to a stable emulsion and about a minute or two everything started to go really thick. I could barely pull the dividers out of the mold. After a lot of very colorful words I checked to see where it went wrong. I was seeing a rebatch in my future for sure! Now things really get strange. I zap tested all 4 colors this morning and no zap. I don’t understand how! Any thoughts from the experts? Recipe attached for your viewing pleasure

If you kept the amount of lye - 133 and just used 133 water then it’s fine. The amount of lye required depends on the oils. You only need the same amount of water for a stable lye solution. Lye needs at least its own weight to dissolve. Basically you left out a third of the water, so it should be fine. And bonus, there’s less water that has to evaporate out.

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

If you kept the amount of lye - 133 and just used 133 water then it’s fine. The amount of lye required depends on the oils. You only need the same amount of water for a stable lye solution. Lye needs at least its own weight to dissolve. Basically you left out a third of the water, so it should be fine. And bonus, there’s less water that has to evaporate out.

The cool thing is I could unmold it in an hour and it was hard as a rock!

 

[Barefoot Farm Girl]

Hmmmm do you have access to high oleic sunflower oil? It has similar qualities to OO and the price is usually lower

It’s definitely less expensive, thanks!!!!