why is my soap soft?

[emi]

I am a beginner and have made 3 batches so far in the last month. The 3rd batch was made 9 days ago on April 1st. I've been curing it and when I checked it today I noticed that it was quite soft. When I press firmly it dents in. Like a slightly ripe avocado. I checked all my oils and their proportions and can't figure out why it turned out soft like this. At first I thought it was the new oil, crisco I was using, but I read that crisco actually makes a hard bar. The only oils I used that turn out a soft bar are castor and avocado, but I only used 10% of each, which is actually less than I used on previous recipes which turned out fine. Can anyone tell me what I may have done wrong? maybe the essential oils?? the aloe?? I only made two 100ml bars.

coconut 30% 36g
avocado 10% 12g
crisco 30% 36g
shea 20% 24g
castor 10% 12g

water 45.6g I used half fresh aloe vera gel and half cucumber juice
lye 16.86g

fragrance: 3.72g (=3.9 ml)
2ml orange essential oil
1.9 ml eucalyptus essential oil

Japanese green tea leaves for exfoliant. about 15 g

I also mixed the lye and oils when they were both around 60-70 degrees. I used frozen aloe and cucumber juice which yielded really cool lye solution. I actually wasn't intending to end up with such a cool lye solution. So I had to cool my oils in the fridge until it got in the temp range of the lye. Can that effect hardness? I read on another soft soap post advising to "soap warmer". Is that what that means? To heat the lye solution and oils to a higher temp before mixing?

ps- I've learned so so much from this forum. Thank you!

 

[BattleGnome]

My first thought is: that is an extremely small batch. The common recommendation is to make 1lb/500g batches. Unless you have a super scale it is difficult to measure accurately. A second plus is to have several testers to see how well a recipe cures as it ages. I've never heard of a recipe getting worse with age but you can use the that opportunity to observe oil longevity (aka DOS).

That being said, you could have a minor accuracy error due to the small batch size. Those errors are magnified as the batch size shrinks. I think the issue is more likely gel.

You said you soaped at 70F. Soap gels in the 180F range (if I remember right). The actual reaction makes a ton of heat but starting at 70 means you probably didn't get that high. If you had insulated your mold or put it in the oven to encourage gel you might have harder soap now. As it stands i think you either have a temperature issue or you added a bit too much water (I'm not super skilled with judging water amounts yet).

Since your recipe as it stands looks ok to me I would suggest DeeAnna's "gel after the fact" method. Preheat your oven to 170F then turn it off. Place your bars on a appropriately covered cookie sheet and leave them in the oven for 12 hours/overnight.

 

[KristaY]

Hi emi and welcome!

My first thought is your batch weight is very small which leaves more room for error. The minimum you should use is 500gm or 1 lb. When your total oil weight is only 120gm, you can easily be off by a few grams which will end up being a big difference in that small an amount.

Are you using a small gram scale? I have one that measures to the 100th of a gram but only goes up to 200gms total. If your scale rounds to the whole gram, that could be part of your problem.

I put your recipe into soapcalc and it says you've got a -2% superfat. Is that what you were going for? I used the calculation for "Crisco, new with palm". If it really is lye heavy that doesn't mean you have to throw the soap out so please don't. Have you done a zap test? If not, I recommend doing that so you know if you've got lye heavy soap.

When I've used aloe juice at 100% and "full water" which what you've done, it was a bit spongy for a while but eventually got harder. Your recipe should give you a nice hard bar so I have a feeling it might be the alternative liquids you used in place of water.

The temperatures of the lye and oils don't matter. I personally prefer to soap at about 110F because I use palm oil so I like to avoid steric spots. If my lye solution cools too much I just heat up the oils to compensate. Many people like to use the heat transfer method to melt their oils which means they add the hot lye to the room temp oils to melt them then go on from there. My only point in telling you that is to demonstrate the temps of both don't matter to the finished soap.

I hope this helps!

 

[emi]

Thank you KristaY and Battle Gnome for your replies! The fact that my batch is so small didn't even occur to me! Of course, that makes total sense. I've just been using my kitchen scale which rounds to the gram. I do have a small weed calculator that measures to the 10th. Maybe I'll use that next time. But I will make sure to make batches that are at least 1 lb from now on.

But KristaY, I was really surprised to see that my superfat was NEGATIVE 2%!! I was certainly not intending to do that! I thought I was at 5% superfat like generally recommended. I ran my numbers again through the soap calc I used which is soapcalc.net. Am I missing something because I'm still getting the same numbers. I typed in the 5 different oils totaling to 120g then put in the various percentages which I checked are all correct in my initial post. And yes, my crisco is the new kind w/ palm oil. And my coconut oil is the 76 degree one. Wouldn't negative superfat mean there's going to be lye in my soap?! That there wasn't enough oils to react with the amount of lye in there? I just understood recently what superfat means. Superfat is essentially the non reacted oils after saponification occurs correct? So if it's negative that means I have unreacted lye. I just looked up what a zap test is. Really? I have to lick my soap to see if it feels like I've been electrocuted?? There's no way around this??

 

[Dorymae]

I just looked up what a zap test is. Really? I have to lick my soap to see if it feels like I've been electrocuted?? There's no way around this??

Lol! I promise zap does not feel like electrocution! Zap is more of a sensation than a feeling, it does not hurt but feels very very tingly. Like touching your tongue to a nine volt battery. If you are not sure if you were zapped - you were not. It is unmistakable. Even if your soap is 2% lye heavy it will disappear with time. (Within 8 weeks) So yes you will need to zap test. Simply wet your finger wipe it over the soap and touch the soapy finger with the tip of your tongue.
The funny part is, even if you are zapped you will think, "wow, that was zap. . . . Well that wasn't that bad!" It really does pop the illusion! Good luck to you.

 

[KristaY]

Thank you KristaY and Battle Gnome for your replies! The fact that my batch is so small didn't even occur to me! Of course, that makes total sense. I've just been using my kitchen scale which rounds to the gram. I do have a small weed calculator that measures to the 10th. Maybe I'll use that next time. But I will make sure to make batches that are at least 1 lb from now on.

But KristaY, I was really surprised to see that my superfat was NEGATIVE 2%!! I was certainly not intending to do that! I thought I was at 5% superfat like generally recommended. I ran my numbers again through the soap calc I used which is soapcalc.net. Am I missing something because I'm still getting the same numbers. I typed in the 5 different oils totaling to 120g then put in the various percentages which I checked are all correct in my initial post. And yes, my crisco is the new kind w/ palm oil. And my coconut oil is the 76 degree one. Wouldn't negative superfat mean there's going to be lye in my soap?! That there wasn't enough oils to react with the amount of lye in there? I just understood recently what superfat means. Superfat is essentially the non reacted oils after saponification occurs correct? So if it's negative that means I have unreacted lye. I just looked up what a zap test is. Really? I have to lick my soap to see if it feels like I've been electrocuted?? There's no way around this??

Thanks for the chuckle, emi! I'm picturing someone zap testing soap looking like they just stuck their wet finger in a light socket, hair standing on end with smoke billowing up....:crazy:

It's not a bad idea to zap test. No, it won't be as crazy as sticking your wet finger into that light socket but it will give you a bit of a zing. Remember it's a feeling, not a taste. Wet your finger with tap water, rub it on the soap, gently touch your finger to the tip of your tongue. If you get the zing, let it be for a week or two then try again. Also, rinse your mouth with water after. I've done it to soap about 12 hours old just so I'd know what it felt like.

Ya, that kitchen scale probably isn't the most reliable when you're working with such a small amount of oils. If you have one that measures to the 10th of a gram, that would really be better.

I typed into SoapCalc exactly the numbers you gave in the previous post then kept changing the SF until I got the lye amount you used. I thought it was odd you'd get a neg SF since the default setting is 5%. Maybe I'm the moron and completely missed something. I'll try it again and see if that's the case since it wouldn't be out of the ordinary, lol.

I routinely make -2% SF, 100% CO soap for cleaning and it's always zapless after a couple of days, so no, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll have lye heavy soap. Remember the sap values of each oil aren't exact. They can change from harvest to harvest. Also, most NaOH isn't 100% pure. If your soap is lye heavy it can be fixed so don't panic. Many times it'll be zap-free if you just leave it be and give it a long cure.

I just re-did your recipe and you're right! You do have 5% SF. My apologies! I have no idea what happened last time except I was using a browser I hate so anything goes. I'm so sorry I put you into a panic, emi. See, it was me being a huge moron! I guess it should be bedtime for me....

So eliminating your non-existent lye heaviness, I'm drawn to the liquid amount and type you used for your lye. You used the default of what's known as "full water". That alone can make your soap softer longer. Then you have the aloe gel which made soft soap when I used it. I suggest giving it a good 4-6 week cure and it should be just fine.

Ok, I'm off to bed before I put anyone else into a soapy panic.....:headbanging:

 

[earlene]

Also your scale could be off. You have 16.86g lye in your recipe, but you probably measured on YOUR scale at 16g or at 17g, since it doesn't measure to tenth or the hundredth of a gram. AND in fact it could be off a gram or more making that number inaccurate. Have you recently calibrated your kitchen scale for accuracy? I am pretty sure many people don't bother thinking it doesn't matter that much, but for soaping, it does matter.

So keep that in mind for future batches, too. BTW, it's probably safer to round down when weighing lye, especially for smaller batches.

 

[WeaversPort]

Also your scale could be off. You have 16.86g lye in your recipe, but you probably measured on YOUR scale at 16g or at 17g, since it doesn't measure to tenth or the hundredth of a gram. AND in fact it could be off a gram or more making that number inaccurate. Have you recently calibrated your kitchen scale for accuracy? I am pretty sure many people don't bother thinking it doesn't matter that much, but for soaping, it does matter.

So keep that in mind for future batches, too. BTW, it's probably safer to round down when weighing lye, especially for smaller batches.

This may be a silly question, but how do you calibrate a digital scale?

 

[earlene]

Some have instructions that come with them. You can buy specific weights for this purpose & that would be more reliable than the US coins method, but you can also use brand new US nickels or US quarters.

Here is a [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRZ5FDF5IFk"]video[/ame] showing how to do this using US nickels.

Here is a [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOT2gt-FYFk"]video[/ame] showing how to do this using calibration weights.

There are various videos specific to brands and countries (using UK coins, etc.) if you search for them.

 

[cmzaha]

My KD 8000 scale can be calibrated, which I do periodically

 

[Zany_in_CO]

This may be a silly question, but how do you calibrate a digital scale?

I do it every once in a while. I use a pound of butter quarters... adding one stick at a time... 4oz., 8 oz. 12 oz. 16 oz. ...there's a dial for adjusting but I've never had to use it. Lucky me.

 

[emi]

Thanks for the chuckle, emi! I'm picturing someone zap testing soap looking like they just stuck their wet finger in a light socket, hair standing on end with smoke billowing up....:crazy:

It's not a bad idea to zap test. No, it won't be as crazy as sticking your wet finger into that light socket but it will give you a bit of a zing. Remember it's a feeling, not a taste. Wet your finger with tap water, rub it on the soap, gently touch your finger to the tip of your tongue. If you get the zing, let it be for a week or two then try again. Also, rinse your mouth with water after. I've done it to soap about 12 hours old just so I'd know what it felt like.

Ya, that kitchen scale probably isn't the most reliable when you're working with such a small amount of oils. If you have one that measures to the 10th of a gram, that would really be better.

I typed into SoapCalc exactly the numbers you gave in the previous post then kept changing the SF until I got the lye amount you used. I thought it was odd you'd get a neg SF since the default setting is 5%. Maybe I'm the moron and completely missed something. I'll try it again and see if that's the case since it wouldn't be out of the ordinary, lol.

I routinely make -2% SF, 100% CO soap for cleaning and it's always zapless after a couple of days, so no, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll have lye heavy soap. Remember the sap values of each oil aren't exact. They can change from harvest to harvest. Also, most NaOH isn't 100% pure. If your soap is lye heavy it can be fixed so don't panic. Many times it'll be zap-free if you just leave it be and give it a long cure.

I just re-did your recipe and you're right! You do have 5% SF. My apologies! I have no idea what happened last time except I was using a browser I hate so anything goes. I'm so sorry I put you into a panic, emi. See, it was me being a huge moron! I guess it should be bedtime for me....

So eliminating your non-existent lye heaviness, I'm drawn to the liquid amount and type you used for your lye. You used the default of what's known as "full water". That alone can make your soap softer longer. Then you have the aloe gel which made soft soap when I used it. I suggest giving it a good 4-6 week cure and it should be just fine.

Ok, I'm off to bed before I put anyone else into a soapy panic.....:headbanging:

Ok great! I'm glad my numbers were correct. I'll give it a longer cure like you suggested. This waiting is killing me though! I made my first batch on March 18th and I've been literally counting down the days to try out my soap! I've noticed how everyone uses so many abbreviations for soap lingo, and I'm not figuring out a few that you used. I know SF is superfat. What is CO? is it coconut oil?? and a "sap" value is a saponification correct? So you're saying those calculators are using saponification rates for each oil that aren't always that accurate, therefore whatever SF percentages I wanted isn't necessarily going to turn out as intended? You also said I "used the default of what's known as 'full water'" which will make my soap soft longer. So what's the other option? To use less water than it says? The soap calc I use (soapcalc.net) already has 38 typed into the slot for "water as % if oils". Can I use a lower percentage? I'm guessing that if it's too low, it won't saponify correctly? And if it's too much, it'll take longer to dehydrate and cure... or is there more to it? Because if there's a way to shorten this waiting time without any consequence, I'm all for it!!

Save​

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

There is no real way to shorten the wait I'm afraid. Soap is good when it is good and ready! Stubborn old soap. Physical hardness and so on are not always signs of a soap being "ready", an example are salt bars which are hard fast and stop losing moisture after a short time, but many people won't use them before they've cured for 3 MONTHS! Many wait longer still, and there are demonstrably benefits to doing it.

For a more "normal" recipe, you will need to wait 4 weeks or so to have a bar that really starts to work how it should. You CAN use it at 3 weeks, but if you're not happy at that stage don't judge the recipe as a dud.

As for water, take a look at the "Lye concentration" or "ratio" options. These two give you a relationship between the water and the lye amounts, rather than the water and the oil amount. As 1000g of oil x can require less lye than 1000g of oil y, if you used the "water as % of oil" option then the strength of your lye solution would change - same water, less or more lye - and that can have a massive impact on how your soap comes to trace, sets up and so on. To have more control, try using the "concentration" option and set it to 33 to start with. This is a nice "Goldilocks" amount for most recipes where many people tend to hover most of the time. It's not perfect for every instance, but for a general figure it works

 

[Susie]

Here's the abbreviation and acronym stickie, there are LOTS of good stickies at the beginning of the beginner and lye based soap making forums:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841

 

[emi]

Here's the abbreviation and acronym stickie, there are LOTS of good stickies at the beginning of the beginner and lye based soap making forums:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841

I would've never found that! What a perfect resource. I really like ,

SO – Sunflower oil or significant other

Just in case we need to abbreviate "significant other" in a soap forum! Ha!
Thank you!

Save​

 

[emi]

There is no real way to shorten the wait I'm afraid. Soap is good when it is good and ready! Stubborn old soap. Physical hardness and so on are not always signs of a soap being "ready", an example are salt bars which are hard fast and stop losing moisture after a short time, but many people won't use them before they've cured for 3 MONTHS! Many wait longer still, and there are demonstrably benefits to doing it.

For a more "normal" recipe, you will need to wait 4 weeks or so to have a bar that really starts to work how it should. You CAN use it at 3 weeks, but if you're not happy at that stage don't judge the recipe as a dud.

As for water, take a look at the "Lye concentration" or "ratio" options. These two give you a relationship between the water and the lye amounts, rather than the water and the oil amount. As 1000g of oil x can require less lye than 1000g of oil y, if you used the "water as % of oil" option then the strength of your lye solution would change - same water, less or more lye - and that can have a massive impact on how your soap comes to trace, sets up and so on. To have more control, try using the "concentration" option and set it to 33 to start with. This is a nice "Goldilocks" amount for most recipes where many people tend to hover most of the time. It's not perfect for every instance, but for a general figure it works

Thank you for your reply. I have read that x and y part of 3rd paragraph about 20 times and thought I got it, then I read it again and feel like I don't get it now. I understand that you are suggesting to tweak the concentration levels of lye to water, rather than water to oil. But the why is the part I'm not quite getting that I really want to get. You said 2 different oils can have 2 different saponification rates right? Therefore if I use the "water as % of oil" option you're saying that my lye solution concentration would change by the lye amount changing and not the water..."same water, less or more lye". But when I enter different percentages of water to oil on soap calcs, the lye amount doesn't change. And same with when i put in different percentages for lye concentration too. Doesn't the type and amount of oil determine exactly how much lye is needed in the recipe? (unless superfat % is changed) So wouldn't the water amounts change depending on how you tweak the numbers in the water column, whether its "water as % of oil" or "lye concentration"? What am I not understanding here?

 

[emi]

I understand that the concentration of lye solution can drastically change how the reaction behaves. So instead of going about it kind of 2nd hand where you change water to oil number which then will change the lye to water, go directly to changing lye to water. But actually. I still don't understand how the lye amount can change depending on changing water/oil concentration or water/lye concentration. I thought lye amount is absolutely set on type and amount of oil.

 

[emi]

Also your scale could be off. You have 16.86g lye in your recipe, but you probably measured on YOUR scale at 16g or at 17g, since it doesn't measure to tenth or the hundredth of a gram. AND in fact it could be off a gram or more making that number inaccurate. Have you recently calibrated your kitchen scale for accuracy? I am pretty sure many people don't bother thinking it doesn't matter that much, but for soaping, it does matter.

So keep that in mind for future batches, too. BTW, it's probably safer to round down when weighing lye, especially for smaller batches.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll definitely calibrate my scale by following the other recommendations of how to do it. And that's a good tip too, to round down when using lye. I was actually rounding up on all my ingredients, including oils and lye. Just because when I'm pouring from one container to the next it seems like I can never get every little bit out, and since I was working with such little amounts, I knew every gram counted! But that's also exactly why I should just make bigger batches like everyone is telling me.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You will (or should!) always end up using the correct amount of lye, regardless. But the water used changes:

The lye solution strength, the amount of lye-to-water, has an impact on the way the soap behaves. If you used a 50% strength solution or a 25% solution, you would still use the same amount of lye but with more or less water. That water would have a huge impact on how things go for you.

That means that when you bind your water amount to the amount of oils, you lose control over the solution strength. You can make two very different batches with the same amount of oils, which would mean the same amount of water, but the amount of lye would be different because your oils are different. This means your lye solution strength is different and may not be what you need for that particular batch.

Using the other two options allows you to keep the relationship between the water and the lye rather than the water and oils. The calc will still give you the right amount of lye to use, and matches the water amount based on the amount of lye rather than the oils.

Try this example -

Go to your chosen calc and select the "concentration" option. Enter 33 in to the value for that.

set the recipe as being 100% coconut oil and look at the amount of water and the amount of lye needed. Change the recipe to being 100% olive oil and recalculate - the water and the lye amounts have changed.

Do this again but with the "% of oils" option and you'll see that the lye amount changes for each recipe, but the water remains the same.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I understand that the concentration of lye solution can drastically change how the reaction behaves. So instead of going about it kind of 2nd hand where you change water to oil number which then will change the lye to water, go directly to changing lye to water. But actually. I still don't understand how the lye amount can change depending on changing water/oil concentration or water/lye concentration. I thought lye amount is absolutely set on type and amount of oil.

On that, I meant if you keep the "% of oils" setting and make two very different 1000g batches, you will have the same amount of water for each batch but the lye will vary based on the oils.

As you say, lye amount is based on the oils and water should be bound to the lye and not the amount of oils, which is why the "% of oils" option is not the best.