When I started soaping, all I used was pomace. I never had an issue with seizing.
Why did this seize?
- Thread starter PieBorg
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I used pomace for years until I stopped using OO altogether, never seized on me either. Every seize I ever had was FO related.
rdc1978
Well-Known Member
LOL, I LOOOOVE the point and click thermometer. But I'm an obsessive temperature checker. And I also like tools. I think I got mine for around $20 on Amazon. Highly recommend if you do CP. I'm a beginner too (though you have much more practice with HP soap) and I hope you keep trying even if this didn't work out.
As an aside, I've used cheapie EVOO from Walmart and it worked fine in my soap!
It's such fun!
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
@Obsidian Yes, that's sort of the plan, except I kinda wanna do it from the other direction, removing one suspect ingredient at a time. I doubt any of the oils are causing such an immediate and hard seize, and I've already ruled out the tea tree because the soap seized before it was added to the last batch. So it has to be either the salt or the AVJ. The AVJ was an afterthought in this recipe anyway, not a necessity, so if I try the same batch today without it and it still seizes, then it has to be the salt, which is the only other additive. I really hope it isn't the salt. I did want that in there.
A little acceleration from the castor wouldn't be a big deal, but these hard seizes are no fun. Still waiting for some of that lovely, smooth batter I've read so much about in this forum.
@KiwiMoose That makes sense. Now that I think about it, there was one other ingredient listed on the label of the AVJ. I'm trying to remember what it was and can't check it atm, because I'm stuck at my desk. At any rate, the AVJ is out of the picture for the next batch.
I can't order a thermometer fast enough lol! I don't know that I would be obsessive about checking temps, but until I get more experience with CP, it seems like I should listen to the experts here who say that even a 10 F temperature difference can really change things.
A little acceleration from the castor wouldn't be a big deal, but these hard seizes are no fun. Still waiting for some of that lovely, smooth batter I've read so much about in this forum.
@KiwiMoose That makes sense. Now that I think about it, there was one other ingredient listed on the label of the AVJ. I'm trying to remember what it was and can't check it atm, because I'm stuck at my desk. At any rate, the AVJ is out of the picture for the next batch.
I can't order a thermometer fast enough lol! I don't know that I would be obsessive about checking temps, but until I get more experience with CP, it seems like I should listen to the experts here who say that even a 10 F temperature difference can really change things.
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rdc1978
Well-Known Member
Ive tried to adhere to that advice and so far it's seemed to work. I like doing swirls and designs so I mix my oils and lye water when they are at least at 90 degrees!
Once either or both the lye water/oils get to 90 degrees exactly! I'll start soaping.
My lye water tends to cool slower, so I'm generally anxiously checking every like 30 seconds when it gets around 95 degrees. LOL.
It also makes me feel very cool and official to use the point and click thermometer.
That seems like a lot of salt to add to the lye water. What was the purpose of adding it to the lye water?, I had always heard to keep the castor oil under 10% because it makes your soap crack. I always do 5-6 %. I make an exfoliating salt soap but add the salt after I add the lye water, I also use a much higher ratio of salt to oils (1:1). Salt soap will thicken and harden very quickly. Haven't I heard that folks use salt to help harden soap rather than using sodium lactate? Also I have never had an issue with tea tree thickening my soap but I alway add it after I blend the oils. I make a charcoal soap that I put tea tree in. I don't add a lot of it, maybe a 1/4 oz.
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
The sweet orange EO and point 'n click thermometer are on their way. Found the thermometer at Harbor Freight's website for $17.99, but of course, shipping bumps it back up to $27. The EO was almost the exact same price as the thermometer for one pound (Bulk Apothecary).
I'm gearing up to try this batch again without the AVJ. I'll just have to wing it for now without the thermometer and EO. Fingers crossed...
I'm gearing up to try this batch again without the AVJ. I'll just have to wing it for now without the thermometer and EO. Fingers crossed...
^^^This!
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
It's how you make brine soap (soleseife). I don't want a "spa bar" with a lot of undissolved salt. It's okay to add up to 20-something percent of salt to the lye water (I forget the exact percentage), as long as it's below the saturation level. I'm okay at 15%. Yes, it's to harden the bar.
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atiz
Well-Known Member
I love my soleseife soap 
As far as I recall, although it did not seize, it did move pretty quickly.
About the amount of salt: I don't remember either the precise percentage to make a saturated solution (26? something like that), but keep in mind that your lye is taking up water too. I usually use the "split water" method -- dissolve the lye in equal amount of water, and then make a saturated solution with the remainder of water. It is really not very much salt you can add this way.
As far as I recall, although it did not seize, it did move pretty quickly.About the amount of salt: I don't remember either the precise percentage to make a saturated solution (26? something like that), but keep in mind that your lye is taking up water too. I usually use the "split water" method -- dissolve the lye in equal amount of water, and then make a saturated solution with the remainder of water. It is really not very much salt you can add this way.
I make brine bars with 25% salt solution, also using the split method since I masterbatch my lye 50/50. I use 25% lard, 35% Pko, 15% liquid oil, shea butter and castor oil, with a 30% Lye concentration and never have them seize. The lard will help slow the trace.
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "split method". So if I need 74 g lye and 147 g water for a 33% solution, I should dissolve the lye in 74 g water, dissolve the salt in the remaining 73 g, and then mix them together? I'm not understanding how that is different from measuring out 147 g water, dissolving the salt in that, and then adding the lye. Are the amounts changing somewhere along the way? Am I being dense and missing something that's obvious to everyone but me? If so, it wouldn't be the first time, and it won't hurt my feelings if you tell me so. It's pretty clear that I have a lot to learn.
I didn't note the source of this information, but I found somewhere that water can hold 28% salt before it's too saturated to hold any more. To be on the safe side and make sure there are no undissolved crystals, I've been sticking with 15%. It does seem to take a while to get it all to dissolve, so I'm a little reluctant to increase the percentage.
Wait! Duh! You mean instead of saturating the entire water amount, I should only saturate the liquid that's left over after dissolving the lye, right? Derp. My momma may have dropped me on my head.
I didn't note the source of this information, but I found somewhere that water can hold 28% salt before it's too saturated to hold any more. To be on the safe side and make sure there are no undissolved crystals, I've been sticking with 15%. It does seem to take a while to get it all to dissolve, so I'm a little reluctant to increase the percentage.
Wait! Duh! You mean instead of saturating the entire water amount, I should only saturate the liquid that's left over after dissolving the lye, right? Derp. My momma may have dropped me on my head.
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atiz
Well-Known Member
Haha, I don't think so
But yes, that's what I meant -- only saturate the water part that is reserved for the salt (whether you actually split your water or not). You don't have to actually split the water if you don't masterbatch your lye, but I think it is easier this way because it's easier to make sure that both the lye and the salt are completely dissolved. (Lye is more water-soluable than salt is, so if you don't split your water you should dissolve the salt first and then add the lye otherwise you'll have a difficult time dissolving the salt.)PieBorg
Well-Known Member
@atiz I followed your recommendations on that and made batch #3. I was adding twice as much salt before! Anyway, I omitted the AVJ and was actually able to SB to a light trace. I stopped there because I didn't want to push my luck, and it's a good thing I did. Once I added the tea tree and AC (stirring by hand), it really started thickening up. It was loose enough to pour most of it into the mold. The scrapings were pretty thick, but not so much that I couldn't smooth the top out pretty nicely. So all in all, I guess I could call it a success. Maybe next time, it would be better to just blend to an emulsion and forget going for any trace at all.
To everyone who provided insight here, thank you so very much! This is the best forum evar! Seriously, it occurred to me the other day that I almost never see any drama on here, just people sharing the enjoyment of their hobby and helping others do the same. There's a lot of kindness here, and I'm as grateful for that as I am for the information sharing.
To everyone who provided insight here, thank you so very much! This is the best forum evar! Seriously, it occurred to me the other day that I almost never see any drama on here, just people sharing the enjoyment of their hobby and helping others do the same. There's a lot of kindness here, and I'm as grateful for that as I am for the information sharing.
atiz
Well-Known Member
Glad it worked out! The original issue may have been a combination of a few different things, but at least you know that you can make a not-crazy-fast-moving soleseife!
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
I think you're right about it being a combination -- too much salt, a crappy recipe to start with, and who knows about that AVJ? No telling why omitting it helped, but it did. Can't wait to get that sweet orange EO to help slow things down a little, because I'm bound to run into other ingredients that behave badly. I'm gonna take KiwiMoose's advice and add a little to every batch, just in case.
It will use up some of the lye, just like the acetic acid in vinegar. This will effectively add some superfat.
Citric acid IS one of the things I used to add as a hardener, along with salt, sugar, sodium lactate, but when I search now for using it as a hardener, I see no results on Google for anyone else using Citric Acid to harden CP or HP soap.
Vinegar famously makes soap harder because of the sodium acetate. Maybe the sodium citrate does this as well?
I have recently had a CP batch seize within 20 seconds of blending. I couldn't believe it. Not too hot - lye mix and oils both at 109 F / 42.8 C
The oils were OO 50%, Shea Butter 20%, Castor oil 10%, Flax at 10%, Cocoa Butter at 10%. BUT I used 100% ACV instead of water. This was going to be a seriously too soft soap for many months otherwise. No other additives except for about 4g of ROE.
I re-did it with less Cocoa Butter and let everything cool off much more before mixing (like 26.6 C / 79.9 F) and no seize.
It needed a bit over two days before I could unmold it, for sure.
(and the original seized batch got rebatched and whipped to make some fluffy-floaty soap just fine)
I had a seize once - making a coconut cream soleseife. It was a 25% brine solution, and coconut cream when I've used it before does tend to heat up a little. But to top it off I used an FO that was a known accelerator. I forced the breadcrumbs into molds and I decided to call it "Salty Sailor" so it sounds as rustic as it looks:
PieBorg
Well-Known Member
That looks a lot like my first batch, lol! While I was busy blaming the AVJ and salt for my seizing problems, I neglected to think about the GM powder. It wouldn't surprise me if that contributed. I'm just glad I finally got something that's slow enough to get most of it into the mold before it turns into granite.
I'm still using it - it's fine, just looks ugly.
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