Why can't I tell the difference with milk added?

[dippy]

Hi All

I have just started testing a couple of my batches as they are at the 4 week period. Batch 1 is without milk but has 1tsp sugar ppo, batch 2 is 50% coconut milk (33% lye concentration on both). Base recipes are the same in both so it's just the milk and sugar that is different.

I was expecting to see a noticeable difference and to be honest the coconut milk one doesn't really seem any creamier and has less lather and the non milk one with sugar actually has a lovely lather.

At first I thought I had mixed up the batches but I really don't think I have. Would the soap have been more creamy using goats milk instead of coconut milk? Or will I find more difference in the two soaps after say 8 weeks? Or do I need to make up to 100% with coconut powder in order to see any real difference?

I am really baffled by this as using milks in soaps seems really popular so don't know why I am not seeing any difference! I did also make a goats milk soap with a different recipe and that one didn't seem any different on creamy texture either.

 

[Obsidian]

Honestly, adding milks really doesn't do much to soap. I do find coconut milk to make a tad bit creamier lather but not enough I could tell the difference in a blind test.
Most additives are purely for label appeal. People think milk soap are good for their skin, its what they want so its what soapers make. Its the same with using expensive oils and butters, they really don't make the soap any better.

The one thing I find that makes the biggest difference in lather is aloe juice, it noticeably makes bigger bubbles and silk makes the soap a little slicker/silkier. Neither will magically make your skin any softer, smoother or moisturized.

 

[DeeAnna]

Other soapers feel much the same as you. Author and soap maker Anne L. Watson did a blind test of her milk soap and non-milk soap, and her testers couldn't tell the difference. I can't tell the difference either.

Other soap makers swear by in the advantages of milk in soap. Whether this is a real difference or an example of confirmation bias, it's hard to tell. I definitely think the use of milk, especially goat milk, is "a thing" in soap making. I think people just like to use various kinds of milks whether they make a real difference or not, because it's kinda cool.

Also see Updated: Lather Lovers Additive Tests, One Year Later! • Modern Soapmaking

 

[dippy]

Ah thank you Obsidian and DeeAnna. I am glad it's not just me as I thought I had messed up! On the plus side the one with sugar had a lovely lather so I will use that again.

I will check out the link and will definitely get some aloe juice to try.

 

[amd]

I've found that milk soaps tend be lower lathering, but a much creamier lather. I can tell the difference in my own soaps, maybe not so much with other people's soaps just because I know how my soap behaves when made with only water, compared to CM, or aloe. But I'm geeky and spend a lot of time analyzing my own soaps I do find that 4 weeks is not enough time for a milk soap - I typically cure mine at 5-6 weeks, because the difference that extra week or two made was noticeable. (Again, noticeable to me... my average customer probably not so much.)

Although a side note... my daughter pulled out a soap I made last year with 50/50 AVJ/CM and the lather is amazeballs! It has the big lather I expect from an aloe soap with the creamy feel of milk soaps. I highly recommend trying this in a soap.

 

[AliOop]

I will just say that a better comparison would have been to make BOTH soaps with sugar, and the only difference being milk against non-milk. By changing two things, you really don't know which "thing" caused the difference that you are feeling.

So I'd encourage you to make two batches that are IDENTICAL (including sugar) and put milk in one, and no milk in the other.

I will say for me that I can use milk soaps on my face, whereas non-milk soaps tend to irritate my facial skin (peeling, redness, etc.). They are definitely creamier! As for a verifiable difference in lather, I can't say for sure. I may have to make some tester soaps myself and see!


ETA: I agree with @amd about a longer cure being needed, esp if you used lard, olive, or other slower-curing oils. The lather of my high-lard soaps is totally different at 4 weeks and 8 weeks.

 

[dippy]

Yes I did consider that AliOop but as milk contains sugar I thought it would end up too high in sugar and cause me problems if I added extra. I will try one with both sugar and milk though to try it.

I like the sound of the AVJ/CM amd - I will try that one also. Can you add the lye directly to the AVJ? I use the split method when using milk.

 

[AliOop]

@dippy I add sugar to my milk soaps with no problem. I use powdered goat milk FWIW. Now I want to make one with AVJ, too!

 

[amd]

Can you add the lye directly to the AVJ? I use the split method when using milk.

I use the split method when doing my milk soaps too. Yes you can add lye to AVJ directly. You do not need to freeze it, just treat it like water. The AVJ will change color a bit - usually a yellow/orange color - that's normal and won't affect your soap color at all.

 

[IrishLass]

I'm geeky like AMD with my soap formulas and I am able to tell the difference in lather/feel in my milk soaps compared to my non-milk soaps....... as long as all other things in the batch are equal (i.e., same formula, same additives, same superfat, etc...).

Mileage varies, though, with how much milk I use and also how much fat it contains. For example, the difference in a 100% milk soap (whether goat or coconut milk) compared to a 50% milk soap is very noticeable to me, especially with the coconut milk I use, which happens to be fattier than the goat milk I use. The difference shows up in the level of creaminess of the lather.

I don't notice that the milk does anything magical to my skin, but the lather does feel more complex to me depending on how much and what kind of milk I use.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

I think the other thing to keep in mind is soap makers may be more aware of slight differences in their soap that the average "normal person" wouldn't perceive.

It's like graphic design or typography -- the aficionados will "ooh and aah" over the tiniest differences while the rest of us are going "huh?"

And another aspect of using milk in soap, at least a dairy milk, is the sugars do indeed react with the lye and increase the superfat. Kevin Dunn reported on that awhile back. So I could argue that a fair test of a milk soap would be to compare it to an equivalent non-milk soap with added simple sugars or a non-milk soap with a few percent more superfat.

 

[dippy]

I completely forgot to mention that DeeAnna but my milk one was 3% sf and my non milk one was 5% sf. So I did take into account the extra fat. I didn't do the calculations though so it isn't an accurate comparison on the fats just a rough comparison.

 

[ThinLizzie59]

Hi everyone:

I now use Goat’s Milk as my only liquid in soaps and with a properly cured soap with a minimum 6 weeks and even longer is better. I will do blind tests comparing non-milk soap to Goat’s Milk and I am SOLD on milk. The amount of lather, to me, is not as important as how my skin feels after using it. Up here in Northern Canada, we get DRY winds in Winter and Dry wind in summer, and Wind almost non stop any other time. So, without a real good moisturizer built into the soap, especially now with COVID, where you can’t put lotion on, my skin is SOOOO soft and happy and I credit the fat in the milk, I also super fat to between 5% and 10%, but Plain water soap is NOT as soothing after the wash at all. Hooray for Goats is all I can say!,

 

[Catscankim]

Other soapers feel much the same as you. Author and soap maker Anne L. Watson did a blind test of her milk soap and non-milk soap, and her testers couldn't tell the difference. I can't tell the difference either.

Other soap makers swear by in the advantages of milk in soap. Whether this is a real difference or an example of confirmation bias, it's hard to tell. I definitely think the use of milk, especially goat milk, is "a thing" in soap making. I think people just like to use various kinds of milks whether they make a real difference or not, because it's kinda cool.

Also see Updated: Lather Lovers Additive Tests, One Year Later! • Modern Soapmaking

i definitely think its a marketing thing. Milk is milk. You can label “Oatmeal milk and honey”,....”oatmeal goats milk and honey” might appeal to more. But oatmeal, cows milk, and honey might be a turnoff lol.

LOL oatmeal, Brittanys milk, and walmart honey might be a turnoff lol.

 

[penelopejane]

Hi everyone:

I now use Goat’s Milk as my only liquid in soaps and with a properly cured soap with a minimum 6 weeks and even longer is better. I will do blind tests comparing non-milk soap to Goat’s Milk and I am SOLD on milk. The amount of lather, to me, is not as important as how my skin feels after using it. Up here in Northern Canada, we get DRY winds in Winter and Dry wind in summer, and Wind almost non stop any other time. So, without a real good moisturizer built into the soap, especially now with COVID, where you can’t put lotion on, my skin is SOOOO soft and happy and I credit the fat in the milk, I also super fat to between 5% and 10%, but Plain water soap is NOT as soothing after the wash at all. Hooray for Goats is all I can say!,

Are you saying you can’t use moisturiser in case you catch Covid?

 

[Catscankim]

I haven't heard that

edit...we have lotion stations all over the hospital. Why no moisturizer?

 

[Kamahido]

I see it as more of a label appeal myself.

 

[math ace]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've been treating various recipes this year. I'm up to recipe #17.

My testers did not pick the coconut milk recipe as their favorite. They definitely preferred the beer soap! They didn't like the smell, but they did like the feel.