White recipe..UPDATE...2 new recipes.....OPINIONS.

[NMAriel]

Oh Boy?? :? You guys are going to tell me this is a no-no, but you know the wonderful Goat Milk soap that I've been making since 2005 that has solved my son's skin problems (and all my friends and family just love it).....well.... here's my lye concentration.

8oz frozen goat milk
2oz Cafe con leche
8.55 oz lye
64 oz oils/butters

It's a 6.5-7% of excess fat. And here's the quality score. Hard 53, clean 16, condition 44, bubbly 16, creamy 37 INS 141.

It's such a lovely liquid, fluid mixture. I can work with it for a long time, if needed. And I don't get burns from the lye FUMES. Not like when I work with water. Yesterday I forgot to roll my sleeves down and the fumes burnt my arm. This doesn't happen with my gm soap.

That's why I did the water amount with the white soap. But I now see that water is REALLY different than goat milk. So I'll add more.

Maybe I'll increase my goat milk to 10-12oz. That way with the cafe con leche, the total amount of fluids is 12-14oz. What do you think.

 

[Lindy]

Hi Deda - when I put it into SoapMaker at the amount given (Castor 4.5 oz/ Palm 12 oz / Coconut 12 oz / Olive 1.5 oz) I get Lye 4.51 oz at 5% Discount and Water at 12 oz without a discount................8% is 4.37 oz of Lye....

 

[Lindy]

Here's the results from the Lye Caluclator at Brambleberry's (I needed to double check against SoapMaker )

Lye Calculator Results
Oil(s) Selected Amount
(oz) SV Lye
(oz)
Castor Oil 4.5
Coconut (fractionated) 12 0.2320 2.784
Olive Oil 1.5 0.1340 0.201
Palm Oil 12 0.1440 1.728
Totals 30 5.289
5% Superfatted Recommended Lye Amount 5.025
Ounces of water recommended 9.900

Totally different from SoapMaker but higher in Lye and lower in water...

Cheers
Lindy

 

[Deda]

Coconut (fractionated) 12 0.2320 2.784

There is a big difference in the SAP values between FC/Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride and Coconut Oil.

The recommend amount according to BB 4.316 for a 7% superfat.

This all just goes to show why knowing the oil properties/values and EXACT measurements are so very important.

 

[Lindy]

Okay - I see what you're saying however when I run it on Coconut Oil @ 5% it still say 4.409 so although I do stand corrected on BB we are now splitting hairs of <0.1 oz......

Deda thank you for keeping me checking the numbers to make sure I'm dead on, but I find that each calculator varies the numbers by small amounts......

 

[Deda]

Lindy, I get what you are saying. .10 of an ounce may not seem like much. But it is. The difference between 4.5 oz and 4.35 oz is around 3%. That 3% of oil makes a big difference in the feel of your soap. When that 3% is lye it has an even bigger impact on the safety of the soap. Especially considering the variances in SAP values.

How often is your scale checked for calibration? A zillion things can go wrong. When you are making soap with the intention of offering it for sale it is the Soapmakers responsibility to make 100% certain that your soap is safe. A lye heavy soap, even a little bit, is not safe.

Just my opinion...

 

[NMAriel]

I think you guys missed my last post, Six (6) posts up is another recipe calculation, what do you think.


Carebear, thank you. I did some calculations on what you wrote and I should use 11oz of water to 4.38oz of lye, to be at 28.479% concentration. Your explaination made sense to me. Thank you again. So what's the water discount? It's opposite ratio?

 

[Lindy]

Peace sister - I agree that on small batches the difference between 5% & 8% is significant. In small batches I always use 8% Lye Discount....so in essence we`re saying very similar things just saying it differently....

Hugs
Lindy

 

[surf girl]

So what's the water discount? It's opposite ratio?

As carebear pointed out, the term "water discount" is tricky because you have to be discounting water from something for it to actually be meaningful. Most people say "water discount" when what they actually mean is "lye concentration." To be meaningful, "water discount" could mean using less water than your recipe calls for; some people will suggest that NO water discount is about a 27% lye solution, even though a lot of people typically soap at around 30%. When people use lye solutions that are at 40% to 50%, they often refer to a "heavy water discount", because they are using less water than what might be considered a fairly typical 27-33% lye solution.

If you use a lye solution that is greater than 50%, I think the risk is that the lye precipitates out of solution and ends up in deposits through the batch.

That's different from a "lye discount", which is the same thing as "superfat". The term "lye discount" actually does make sense, because in effect, a 0% lye discount, or 0% superfat, means there is exactly enough lye to saponify the oils. People don't do this for body soap, mainly because of the risk of erring into having a little too much lye for the amount of oil and therefore ending up with a lye heavy batch.

Your goatsmilk recipe has a lye solution of about 46%, I think (I didn't use a calculator, just did the math). Apparently, some people who soap with recipes that are mostly "soft" oils or predominantly olive oil will use a strong lye solution, between 40% and 50%, because these can (1) take a long time to trace and (2) take a long time to cure/harden if you have a lot of water. How does your GM recipe compare to your "white" recipe? I think palm oil is "hard", yes? So between it and the CO, you have 80% hard oils. With that crazy-ass 60% lye solution :wink: , no wonder it traced like the wind. Does your GM recipe have a higher proportion of "softer" oils? Perhaps that's why you have been having relative success with that recipe.

 

[ChrissyB]

Along with the not enough water issue, you also have a high percentage (80%) of coconut and palm oils. These oils will make any recipe trace a little faster. Sooo, you have not enough water and quick tracing oils (as opposed to olive oil which can take ages). Stick with the recipe, just put it through a soal calc and start off down at 28% lye concentration, that will give you much more time to play around with it if you want to.
Sounds like it will be a lovely soap. I love plain white soap!

 

[NMAriel]

So what's the water discount? It's opposite ratio?

As carebear pointed out, the term "water discount" is tricky because you have to be discounting water from something for it to actually be meaningful. Most people say "water discount" when what they actually mean is "lye concentration." To be meaningful, "water discount" could mean using less water than your recipe calls for; some people will suggest that NO water discount is about a 27% lye solution, even though a lot of people typically soap at around 30%. When people use lye solutions that are at 40% to 50%, they often refer to a "heavy water discount", because they are using less water than what might be considered a fairly typical 27-33% lye solution.

If you use a lye solution that is greater than 50%, I think the risk is that the lye precipitates out of solution and ends up in deposits through the batch.

That's different from a "lye discount", which is the same thing as "superfat". The term "lye discount" actually does make sense, because in effect, a 0% lye discount, or 0% superfat, means there is exactly enough lye to saponify the oils. People don't do this for body soap, mainly because of the risk of erring into having a little too much lye for the amount of oil and therefore ending up with a lye heavy batch.

Your goatsmilk recipe has a lye solution of about 46%, I think (I didn't use a calculator, just did the math). Apparently, some people who soap with recipes that are mostly "soft" oils or predominantly olive oil will use a strong lye solution, between 40% and 50%, because these can (1) take a long time to trace and (2) take a long time to cure/harden if you have a lot of water. How does your GM recipe compare to your "white" recipe? I think palm oil is "hard", yes? So between it and the CO, you have 80% hard oils. With that crazy-ass 60% lye solution :wink: , no wonder it traced like the wind. Does your GM recipe have a higher proportion of "softer" oils? Perhaps that's why you have been having relative success with that recipe.

Those bold & underlined quotes make sense, thank you. My gm soap isn't high is liquid oils, but butters. It has PO & PKO, but butters are more %. Maybe that's why the lye concentration I use is ok.

 

[NMAriel]

Along with the not enough water issue, you also have a high percentage (80%) of coconut and palm oils. These oils will make any recipe trace a little faster. Sooo, you have not enough water and quick tracing oils (as opposed to olive oil which can take ages). Stick with the recipe, just put it through a soal calc and start off down at 28% lye concentration, that will give you much more time to play around with it if you want to.
Sounds like it will be a lovely soap. I love plain white soap!

Thank you for the analysis, I'll have to remember the those oils trace fast. I actually was playing with the soap cal and was trying to do what you just said. If memory serves (cuz I didn't write it down, but will do so) I believe 11oz gives me 28.479% lye concentration.

 

[NMAriel]

I went through a soap book I have looking for recipes with oils that I have, what do you all think of these?


#1:

Olive 41.%
Coconut 31.37%
Palm 27.45%

Qualities: hardness 45,clean 21, cond'g 51, bubbly 21, creamy 23, INS 166.


#2:

Olive 34.99%
Coconut 30.02%
Palm 34.99%

Qualities: hardness 46,clean 20, cond'g 49, bubbly 20, creamy 26, INS 166.

 

[ChrissyB]

Yes they sound like good recipes. Just make sure you run them through the soap calc to get your exact amounts of lye/water, and yes 28% lye concentration, will give you much more time to work with your soap. More water dilutes the lye, therefore the reaction takes longer, thereby giving your more time to play around.