What went wrong here? Pine tar soap

[Corsara]

Very stressful soaping session last night, I don't really like soaps that lie/lye to me!

I pulled my pine tar soap out of the mold this morning, and it had a fairly large pool of separated brown liquid in the bottom half of it.

I have attached my recipe below and a picture of the bottom of the loaf. I also added sodium lactate. My lye was 90 degrees, and my oils were 100 when I mixed, and it took forever to reach trace, including 10 minutes of stick blending in bursts and 10 minutes of stirring. I thought pine tar was supposed to accelerate?

It also looked like it was what I assume was ricing, right before it finally thickened up. I tried to keep mixing for a minute to make sure it was fully mixed back together, and it was nice and smooth and glossy at a thick trace when I poured.

The only other anomaly I noticed is that my lye didn't heat up as much as I expected, but I put that down to this being a smaller batch than I've done before.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm voting for false trace -- the batch was so small and the ingredients were too cool, so the the solid fats started to solidify before the batter actually reached a true trace (stable chemical emulsion). Then when you put the supposedly "traced" soap batter in the mold, it finally started to heat up, the solid fats melted again, and some of the water-based liquid separated out.

You mentioned the batter looked glossy when you poured it. In my experience, PT soap batter when ready to pour generally has a grainy texture and the top of the batter changes to a dull surface sheen.

Yes, pine tar can cause ricing and yes it causes acceleration. But there are exceptions to every rule, and it looks like you found an exception.

 

[Corsara]

I'm voting for false trace -- the batch was so small and the ingredients were too cool, so the the solid fats started to solidify before the batter actually reached a true trace (stable chemical emulsion). Then when you put the supposedly "traced" soap batter in the mold, it finally started to heat up, the solid fats melted again, and some of the water-based liquid separated out.

Yes, pine tar can cause ricing and yes it causes acceleration. But there are exceptions to every rule, and it looks like you found an exception.

Thanks @DeeAnna. Can I rebatch this? Or would it be best to start from scratch. All the liquid obviously spilled out, so I guess technically I don't still have all the components it needs?
What would be a good temp to avoid this?

 

[DeeAnna]

Your superfat is higher than you wanted it to be, but otherwise it's going to be safe to use after it cures. Unless you know how much liquid the soap lost, I don't know how you can rebatch and make an intelligent decision about how much lye to add back in, so I can't see how a rebatch would be useful. I'd probably just use the soap as-is.

As far as the temp goes -- you said some things that indicated you soaped cooler than usual. Might just want to stick with your usual next time you try this -- if you're using tallow, and generally getting decent results, then do what you usually do when making a soap with tallow in it, whether it has PT or not.

 

[Corsara]

Your superfat is higher than you wanted it to be, but otherwise it's going to be safe to use after it cures. Unless you know how much liquid the soap lost, I don't know how you can rebatch and make an intelligent decision about how much lye to add back in, so I can't see how a rebatch would be useful. I'd probably just use the soap as-is.

As far as the temp goes -- you said some things that indicated you soaped cooler than usual. Might just want to stick with your usual next time you try this -- if you're using tallow, and generally getting decent results, then do what you usually do when making a soap with tallow in it, whether it has PT or not.

Thank you! This forum is seriously so helpful! Ok, I guess I'll just let it cure for a while. I usually soap 15 deg or so hotter, so I'll try again like normal

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I'm voting for false trace -- the batch was so small and the ingredients were too cool, so the the solid fats started to solidify before the batter actually reached a true trace (stable chemical emulsion). Then when you put the supposedly "traced" soap batter in the mold, it finally started to heat up, the solid fats melted again, and some of the water-based liquid separated out.

You mentioned the batter looked glossy when you poured it. In my experience, PT soap batter when ready to pour generally has a grainy texture and the top of the batter changes to a dull surface sheen.

Yes, pine tar can cause ricing and yes it causes acceleration. But there are exceptions to every rule, and it looks like you found an exception.

Can I ask did you use an EO or FO in it?. I'm gonna try to make PT Soap & it looks like it can be tricky to work with.

 

[Corsara]

Can I ask did you use an EO or FO in it?. I'm gonna try to make PT Soap & it looks like it can be tricky to work with.

No, I didn't add anything with this being my first attempt. I found this video to be very helpful

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

No, I didn't add anything with this being my first attempt. I found this video to be very helpful

Thx Bunches'

 

[DeeAnna]

I have some pine tar tips and recipes here -- Table of contents | Soapy Stuff

 

[earlene]

Is that a tunnel I see at the bottom of the soap? Or an open hole? If so, that would be from overheating after being poured as a false-trace as DeeAnna suggests & I agree. If your tallow & CO cooled a lot, that is surely what happened. Is it cold in your house right now? It snowed here yesterday and as I understand it, the cold front moved all across the South, so I expect you got it as well. That would contribute to your soap batter cooling down fast.

If you saved the oily residue that leaked out, yes, you can re-batch. But if you tossed that out, you won't know what amount was lost of the lye and what amount was oils.

Your lye concentration is 28%, which is a lot of water. I'd switch that to 33% lye concentration as I mentioned in your other thread. It won't solve the problem with this current soap, but for future reference. Lye concentration is circled in the picture below:

 

[Corsara]

I have some pine tar tips and recipes here -- Table of contents | Soapy Stuff

I read though a bunch of your site yesterday before I started! Very helpful

Is that a tunnel I see at the bottom of the soap? Or an open hole? If so, that would be from overheating after being poured as a false-trace as DeeAnna suggests & I agree. If your tallow & CO cooled a lot, that is surely what happened. Is it cold in your house right now? It snowed here yesterday and as I understand it, the cold front moved all across the South, so I expect you got it as well. That would contribute to your soap batter cooling down fast.

If you saved the oily residue that leaked out, yes, you can re-batch. But if you tossed that out, you won't know what amount was lost of the lye and what amount was oils.

Your lye concentration is 28%, which is a lot of water. I'd switch that to 33% lye concentration as I mentioned in your other thread. It won't solve the problem with this current soap, but for future reference. Lye concentration is circled in the picture below:

Yes, some sort of tunnel in the bottom. It wasn't too cold last night I don't think
Sadly the liquid leaked out and spilled out everywhere.
Yikes, I really messed up! I thought I had switched the lye concentration per your suggestion. I should have reread my recipe. Thanks for pointing that out. I might try again tonight with adjusted recipe and higher temp.

 

[earlene]

I know, how bothersome, right? I've had it happen, too. Sometimes it's just better to toss it out and start again from scratch. When it leaks all over the place, that's when it's better to toss it out. Good thing it was a small experimental batch, right? You have enough pine tar in that container to make lots of soap, so try try again and you will succeed.

 

[Corsara]

I know, how bothersome, right? I've had it happen, too. Sometimes it's just better to toss it out and start again from scratch. When it leaks all over the place, that's when it's better to toss it out. Good thing it was a small experimental batch, right? You have enough pine tar in that container to make lots of soap, so try try again and you will succeed.

Thank you for the encouragement I'll give it another shot

 

[Corsara]

I know, how bothersome, right? I've had it happen, too. Sometimes it's just better to toss it out and start again from scratch. When it leaks all over the place, that's when it's better to toss it out. Good thing it was a small experimental batch, right? You have enough pine tar in that container to make lots of soap, so try try again and you will succeed.

Does this look right? After some more research, I wanted to adjust my pine tar to 15% for my second attempt. I plan on soaping at 120 deg if that is warm enough to avoid false trace.

 

[earlene]

Well, changing your PT to a higher percentage when you have not yet been successful with a lower percentage seems a little odd. But not necessarily a bad thing. Go for it, as I am sure it will be a nice enough soap.

Your lye concentration is at 33%, which is a good idea, as is the small batch size for a tester recipe. However, this is still going to be a short lasting soap. But again, not a bad thing, as this is a test batch. BUT being so small, you also run the risk of it cooling down really fast, and maybe ending up with false trace again. So I suggest a bit higher temp if you feel comfortable with that, and make sure it is truly trace before pouring. How are you checking temps? Do you have an IFR thermometer? You can take temps faster with one, than if you are using a candy thermometer, for example.

If your batter loses heat quickly, which it can do with a small batch and especially when you are new to soaping, there are methods to remedy that. We tend to move more slowly due to inexperience when new to soapmaking, and that is good because it means we are being careful, but it also means the soap has more time to cool down and give us false trace. One way to remedy the too-fast cooling, is to use a some sort of insulation, like a hot water bath, something like cooking over a double boiler. Using a tall thin vessel for mixing your batter as opposed to the short wide vessel will reduce the surface area thus prolonging heat loss so you have more time to work. Also using a tall thin vessel, means it may fit it into a hot water bath more easily, but of course that depends on the size of both vessels. You just don't want the inner vessel to be able to fall over into the water in the outer vessel. Or maybe just wrap the outside of your container with a towel to help retain the heat in the batter.

In case you don't know this, the hardness number is misleading in terms of how long a bar of soap will last in use. The 'longevity' number (not in most soap/lye calculators) can be found in the one here at our site: Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator

 

[Corsara]

Well, changing your PT to a higher percentage when you have not yet been successful with a lower percentage seems a little odd. But not necessarily a bad thing. Go for it, as I am sure it will be a nice enough soap.

Your lye concentration is at 33%, which is a good idea, as is the small batch size for a tester recipe. However, this is still going to be a short lasting soap. But again, not a bad thing, as this is a test batch. BUT being so small, you also run the risk of it cooling down really fast, and maybe ending up with false trace again. So I suggest a bit higher temp if you feel comfortable with that, and make sure it is truly trace before pouring. How are you checking temps? Do you have an IFR thermometer? You can take temps faster with one, than if you are using a candy thermometer, for example.

If your batter loses heat quickly, which it can do with a small batch and especially when you are new to soaping, there are methods to remedy that. We tend to move more slowly due to inexperience when new to soapmaking, and that is good because it means we are being careful, but it also means the soap has more time to cool down and give us false trace. One way to remedy the too-fast cooling, is to use a some sort of insulation, like a hot water bath, something like cooking over a double boiler. Using a tall thin vessel for mixing your batter as opposed to the short wide vessel will reduce the surface area thus prolonging heat loss so you have more time to work. Also using a tall thin vessel, means it may fit it into a hot water bath more easily, but of course that depends on the size of both vessels. You just don't want the inner vessel to be able to fall over into the water in the outer vessel. Or maybe just wrap the outside of your container with a towel to help retain the heat in the batter.

In case you don't know this, the hardness number is misleading in terms of how long a bar of soap will last in use. The 'longevity' number (not in most soap/lye calculators) can be found in the one here at our site: Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator

I made my second batch last night!

I changed the pine tar percentage because I wasn't happy with the colour and scent levels I was aiming for, so unrelated to my fail!

I just have a regular thermometer, so I kept a close eye on it as it was cooling, and I think I started mixing right when both temps got just under 130 deg. I'm not sure how high is too high?

It mixed together super fast, and I got it to medium trace and poured. I just cut it, and zap tested, "for science", because I wanted to know what it feels like!

I had wondered if a second container of warm water was an option, and when I try some more test batches of recipes that won't trace as quickly as this one, I think I'll try that!

Thank you so much for the link to calculate longevity! I knew that hardness was not related, but I didn't know there was a way to calculate it.

It looks grainy.. and I think I cut a bit too soon, but it's the only chance I'll get this weekend, so

Please excuse my messy craft table!

 

[DeeAnna]

Pine tar traces fast. It's very unlikely you'll get lots of time to mess with with a pine tar batch no matter what recipe you use. My usual recipe gives me as much as 15-20 minutes before it gets to a thick gravy consistency. Add pine tar to that same recipe, and I'm lucky to get a minute of useful working time before it becomes unpourable brownie batter.

I'd say the color of your first batch was lighter due to the problems you had with that batch, not to the 10% dosage of PT you used. If you make another successful batch of pine tar soap with 10% PT, it is likely to be just as dark as the 15% PT batch you just made.

Some people do make pine tar soap that is more of a dark honey or caramel brown. I suspect the lighter color is due to the particular can that that soap maker purchased. Pine tar is a natural product, so it's reasonable to expect some variation in its properties. But most PT soap is normally quite a bit darker, even at a 5% to 10% dosage. I've used three different brands of PT, and the cans I've bought all make dark PT soap.

 

[Corsara]

Pine tar traces fast. It's very unlikely you'll get lots of time to mess with with a pine tar batch no matter what recipe you use. My usual recipe gives me as much as 15-20 minutes before it gets to a thick gravy consistency. Add pine tar to that same recipe, and I'm lucky to get a minute of useful working time before it becomes unpourable brownie batter.

I'd say the color of your first batch was lighter due to the problems you had with that batch, not to the 10% dosage of PT you used. If you make another successful batch of pine tar soap with 10% PT, it is likely to be just as dark as the 15% PT batch you just made.

Some people do make pine tar soap that is more of a dark honey or caramel brown. I suspect the lighter color is due to the particular can that that soap maker purchased. Pine tar is a natural product, so it's reasonable to expect some variation in its properties. But most PT soap is normally quite a bit darker, even at a 5% to 10% dosage. I've used three different brands of PT, and the cans I've bought all make dark PT soap.

Thanks for the info! That makes sense, that I lost some colour last time to my other issues.

Yes, hearing about the fast trace was what first made me think something was up with my first batch, because it took so long, even with stick blending. The second one I just used a spatula.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

It looks grainy.. and I think I cut a bit too soon, but it's the only chance I'll get this weekend, so

Please excuse my messy craft table!

Wow' I think it looks fantastic. I like the wood box its setting on too' Imho gives a rustic ambience' matching the soap. Well Done. .

Ive looked @DeeAnna website several times on instructions "I'm feeling confidant & ready just waiting for PT to arrive"

 

[Corsara]

Wow' I think it looks fantastic. I like the wood box its setting on too' Imho gives a rustic ambience' matching the soap. Well Done. .

Ive looked @DeeAnna website several times on instructions "I'm feeling confidant & ready just waiting for PT to arrive"

Thank you! That wooden box is the mold my husband made me, upside down I added a piece of wood to make the length adjustable.