what kind of base or process is this?

[Bex1982]

Is this something anyone here has done? What's it called and do you think there is still glycerin left in the soap?

"The new base she has created combines sunflower oil, rapeseed oil and coconut oil with sodium hydroxide and water, mixed together and boiled to accelerate the saponification process. Salt is added to separate the soap from the mixture, and the finished soap is then extruded to produce "dry noodles"."

I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "separate the soap from the mixture" , what sort of product is left?

 

[jenneelk]

This sounds familiar.. I believe it was talked about on here or another board.. Probably around the fall last year.

I'm curious to recall what it all does but DeeAnna should know. I'm off to look up on here to see if I can find it.

Ah yes.. Lush an their palm alternative.
It seems to be that the salt causes a reaction maybe that allows it to solidify and separate from the water? Not sure but that's what I gather from it.
Where are all our scientist on here?
I know we have several

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think it refers to "salting out" a soap. There are a couple on here who seem to do it fairly often (Egblom, I think) and from what I have read it would give you a rather wet mass to be able to string out like that.

Salting out was used in olden times as it would allow excess lye to be removed from the soap - the lye would stay in the brine and the saponified oils (0% SF soap) would float on top.

 

[DeeAnna]

The Gent is right. The description is of a "boiled" soap -- something that's been done in industry for well over 150 years. And grandmothers made their soap at home this way for centuries before that. Most if not all commercial soap is made this way even today, although I'd guess consumers do not have a clue about how soap is made. I suppose that's why Lush is touting this as some "new" and "magical" thing.

The process of boiling soap is basically a way to make fully saponified soap when you are not precisely sure what the saponification value is of the fats you are using. Most commercial soaps nowadays are made with zero superfat or a very tiny superfat -- not remotely like the 3% or more superfat that is typical for handcraft soap.

After the saponification process is complete, a slight excess of lye will have been added to ensure there are no free fats or fatty acids. More water than is required is also used, so the mixture can literally be boiled to supply the heat needed for saponification.

So after all is said and done, how does one to remove the excess lye and excess water from a boiled soap? Answer -- add salt. If the soap is not a highly soluble soap (say a pure coconut oil soap), it is insoluble in salt water when enough salt or salt brine has been added to the soap kettle. The amount of salt required will depend on the type of soap being made.

(Remember that "salt soaps" are 80% to 100% CO? The reason is that CO soap is soluble in salt water. Soaps with longer chain fatty acids are not.)

After enough salt is added, the mixture is gently heated and stirred, and the finished soap forms a layer of curds on top of a liquid layer. The liquid includes glycerin, salt, and excess lye. The liquid and the soap curds are separated. In industry, the soap curd is flash dried and put through a machine that extrudes the soap into flakes or "noodles". These noodles are then mixed with fragrance, synthetic detergents, and other additives and pressed into bars for sale.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The glycerine point is an important one - normal CP or HP soap contains the yummy glycernine still, that wonderfully lovely stuff. Salting out will remove it, which could well make the soap feel a lot harsher.

 

[DeeAnna]

Engblom has made CP soap and then boiled and salted it down. This is not quite the same process as the industrial version, but I think the soap ends up pretty much the same either way. Engblom is adamant that the boiled version of the soap is milder than the not-boiled version.

Speaking from vague memory -- Someone else (newbie? obsidian? seven? ???) boiled down a CP soap that originally had too much ground coffee making the soap too abrasive. The boiling process removed the grounds and other objectionable material, but the soap felt harsher and was difficult to form into a bar.

So go figure. I've not done a boiled soap, so I can't speak from personal experience.

 

[Obsidian]

Yep, that was me. Used way too much coarse coffee grounds and a terrible scent so I salted it out. Removed probably 90% of the grounds and all the scent but the resulting soap was awful.
It was harsh and had no conditioning properties at all, not to mention a really weird waxy texture. It was a pain in the butt to get back together and in the mold too. Boiled out soap curdles and it just don't want to stick together.

 

[DeeAnna]

Ah, thanks for setting me straight, Obsidian! I appreciate that....

 

[Belinda02]

This may be off topic but why not let soap settle in a cool solution and not add salt ? Grandmothers would have used tallow or lard which wouldn't dissolve in water. Once it settles or solidifies pour off excess lye water and letting resulting soap cure. Any excess lye would turn to ash leaving a milder soap in time.

 

[cmzaha]

A year or so ago I salted out some soap and I can say I loved the feel of it, but did not particulary enjoy the process. I am with Engblom, I loved the soap and it was not drying in the least

 

[DeeAnna]

Belinda --

"...tallow or lard which wouldn't dissolve in water..." I agree that fat and plain water are insoluble and immiscible, but we're talking about the soap here, not the fat from which the soap is made.

Soap is highly soluble in plain water and does not settle out efficiently. You'd have a fair amount of soap left in solution if you tried to settle it out from unsalted water -- an unnecessary loss.

When salt is added, it turns out many sodium soaps are insoluble in a water-salt solution, if you get the salt content high enough (varies with the type of soap you've made).

That is why KOH soaps are not salted out to concentrate them -- these soaps are too soluble in salty water as well as in plain water so the salting-out process just doesn't work.

Here is a description of the salting-out process from "The Art of Soapmaking" by Alexander Watt, 1884:

"...The oil being now completely neutralised with alkali, the combination in its present state also contains a large quantity of water in the shape of exhausted or spent ley [a very old name for lye]. To remove this, many substances may be employed, but common salt, which answers the purpose admirably, is from its cheapness generally employed. The process of separation, which is generally termed "cutting the pail," is effected by throwing into the pan a concentrated solution of common salt, or a few shovelfuls of the same, each portion being allowed to dissolve before the next is added.

...When sufficient salt has been thrown in, the soap separates from the leys (which also hold glycerine in solution) and coagulates in flakes or granular clots. The soap-boiler, by freely using his shovel — by repeatedly dipping it into the boiling mass and observing its condition — can tell in a moment when enough salt has been added. At this period the ley runs clear off the shovel or trowel, leaving the soap in separated lumps upon its surface. By continuied boiling the clots assume a granular or grain-like appearance, in which condition the soap is said to be "boiled to a curd."

...When the soap has assumed the form of grains or curds, it is known that all the superabundant water — that is, its uncombined mater — is separated from it, and at this stage the fire is drawn or the steam turned off, as the case may be, and the pan is allowed to repose for a few hours to enable the leys to deposit...."

 

[Bex1982]

The glycerine point is an important one - normal CP or HP soap contains the yummy glycernine still, that wonderfully lovely stuff. Salting out will remove it, which could well make the soap feel a lot harsher.

Thank you, this is what I was wondering. Yes the post came from Lush and their removal of palm oil.
I love lush's colors and fragrances and their overall look they have but every one of their soaps have dried my skin out. That's why I was wondering if the glycerine was left in, they might add it back later on? And if there is no superfat it would explain the drying. But on the other hand all of their soaps are fairly soft, it made me wonder years ago if it was MP soap, or have they added some oild back in to? I guess we will never know since their recipes are secret.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

They might well use the gly for other things, leave on products mainly. That's what a lot of the big boys do.

 

[Bex1982]

I read that the price of glycerin is more than soap itself. Too bad they ruin good soap and make people think all soap is harsh

 

[eucalypta]

The cool thing about our CP or HP soap is that it contains glycerin, which has a moisurizing effect.
THe boilt (industrial) soap - as mentioned already - has lost the glycerin, which makes the soap harsh and hard to mould.
Sometimes it says on the label "with extra added glycerin"; yeah... I get that - first they remove the glycerin and then they put it back in :roll:

 

[LunaSkye]

I'm curious as to what happens to the water after the soap is extracted? Is that the method for getting the glycerin that is used in food and/or cosmetics?

 

[Bex1982]

I think so (?)

 

[LunaSkye]

I think so (?)

I looked it up after seeing your response. I am also trying to keep my mind from going crazy (I ate that stuff), so here's the link:

http://www.ehow.com/list_5847508_vegetable-glycerin-made-of_.html

I still want to know what happens to the lye water and glycerin, but I will rest assured that I didn't eat it!