What is the difference between rebatcing and melt and pour?

[fillycate]

To specify, what is the difference between rebatching a soap you have poured into a mold but has a problem, so you want to rebatch it, and using a melt and pour base to make a soap?

It seems like when you rebatch, you never get as smooth a pour as the first time. Is that the case with a melt and pour base? If not, what is the difference?

 

[lsg]

Re-batching usually refers to cold process soap, which is a different technique than M&P. With the cold process soap re-batching, the soap is grated and a liquid is added, then all is heated in a double boiler or in a slow cooker until the contents are fully melted. With M&P, the base is melted and poured into a mold. Nothing need be added, unless you want to add fragrance or coloring.

 

[cmzaha]

To further clarify, M&P bases are made to be melted and usually remelted many times to a total liquid state for pouring.
Rebatch, whether you purchase rebatch shreds such as Brambleberry sells or shred your own cp or hp soap, will never meltdown to a true liquid state, the best you will acquire is a thick molten lava type consistency.

 

[fillycate]

I found a mention that melt & pour has a high glycerin content. I saw another person claim there were strange liquids and detergents in it, but no information to back this up.

 

[Obsidian]

Yes, m&p has glycerin added, along with some type of solvent and sugar. Thats what makes it meltable.
Many brands are made with synthetic detergents, some are made with saponified oils while others are a blend of the two.

 

[fillycate]

Thank you for this information. Does anyone know how to make their own melt and pour base? When I was first learning about it, I had no idea that this is absolutely not how soap actually behaves, that it can never be melted to a smooth, pourable consistency again.

 

[cmzaha]

I find today that most m&p is now "soap" starting with lye soap as the base, not synthetic m&p. The crystal clear m&p seems to be the main synthetic (syndet) bases around because they need the extra additives to make crystal clear, maybe hobby store bases are still synthetic I am not sure. I still find nothing wrong with synthetic bars (syndet) bars, which do have a place in the world of soap. As handmade soapmakers, some get lost in the fiction that all handmade soap is perfect for everyone and every condition and all synthetic is bad, but it is fact, some people Cannot use lye soap, and I have one daughter that does better with m&p crystal (syndet) than lye soap.

It is really less costly to purchase a quality m&p base than make your own if you want a good reliable meltable base. One other problem with making your own base is it usually does not pour as well as manufactured m&p. They have the formulas down and can make a base that melts at higher temperatures. I have tried several formulas and all have wrinkled on top, especially when I reheat and pour my base. Sometimes the first pour will be okay if all conditions are perfect such as melt temp and no air movement.

Essentials by Catalina make in house bases which are very nice and I believe they still carry Stephensen's Bases but I have not looked it up this morning.

 

[fillycate]

It is really less costly to purchase a quality m&p base than make your own if you want a good reliable meltable base

Good to know! Still am curious about the process.

 

[TheGecko]

To specify, what is the difference between rebatching a soap you have poured into a mold but has a problem, so you want to rebatch it, and using a melt and pour base to make a soap?

I had to think about this, because I can see how confusing this can be: "Rebatching" refers to the process of taking CP/HP soap, grating it, adding water, melting it down and making new soap from it. When you make Melt & Pour Soap, you take a 'base', cut it up into small pieces, melt it down and make new soap from it.

The thing is...M&P is a different kind of soap. While it contains many of the same ingredients as soap made via CP or HP...like Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Shea Butter, Water and Sodium Hydroxide...that is where the similarities end. To be able to 'melt and pour', the M&P 'base' also contains high amounts of Glycerin, along with Sorbitol and Propylene Glycol. And depending on the type of 'base' you purchase...it may also contain Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Chloride, Triethanolamine, Sodium Chloride, EDTA, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Pentasodium Pentetate to name of few of them.

It seems like when you rebatch, you never get as smooth a pour as the first time. Is that the case with a melt and pour base? If not, what is the difference?

While it is true that the majority of time, 'rebatched' CP soap has a more 'rustic' appearance, if you're really good at it, it can be difficult to tell the difference.

Again, M&P is a different kind of soap. It is formulated to be able to produce a smooth bar a soap...providing of course, you don't overheat it or reheat it too many times

 

[fillycate]

To be able to 'melt and pour', the M&P 'base' also contains high amounts of Glycerin, along with Sorbitol and Propylene Glycol. And depending on the type of 'base' you purchase...it may also contain Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Chloride, Triethanolamine, Sodium Chloride, EDTA, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Pentasodium Pentetate to name of few of them

Thank you so much! This is very helpful information.

While it is true that the majority of time, 'rebatched' CP soap has a more 'rustic' appearance, if you're really good at it, it can be difficult to tell the difference.

Would this be because grating it finely and adding the right amount of liquid gets it almost as pourable as the melt and pour bases achieve through their use of glycerin, stable alcohols, and other chemicals?

 

[TheGecko]

Would this be because grating it finely and adding the right amount of liquid gets it almost as pourable as the melt and pour bases achieve through their use of glycerin, stable alcohols, and other chemicals?

Absolutely not! Once soap has saponified, you can't add anything but scent and colorants.

Once again, you can't compare Rebatching regular soap with Melt & Pour...it's apples and onions, not apples and oranges. As another example, in order to rebatch regular soap, you need to add water. And the more water you add, the more fluid the mixture. And the more water you add, the longer the soap will need to recure. M&P, because of the added glycerin and other chemicals, can just be remelted. You add water to it and you might as well toss it.

Now I have a question...what exactly are you looking for? Are you looking for a way to make soap without having to use Lye? It would be understandable...there are safety and proper storage requirements when making soap from scratch (as it were) and not everyone wants to deal with it or they have other reasons why making soap from scratch is not feasible.

Just as you can purchase M&P bases, you can also purchase Rebatch bases too. I know that BrambleBerry sells two kinds and comes in 1lb, 5lb and 25lb bags and they have several projects for it. And you might be able to find a soap maker who would be willing to sell you plain loaves of soap for you to grate and rebatch.

 

[artemis]

Here is an interesting thread about making a M&P base from scratch. There are others, if you search.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/transparent-soap-adventures.71136/

 

[fillycate]

Now I have a question...what exactly are you looking for? Are you looking for a way to make soap without having to use Lye? It would be understandable...there are safety and proper storage requirements when making soap from scratch (as it were) and not everyone wants to deal with it or they have other reasons why making soap from scratch is not feasible

I am coming from being a dairy farmer before being a soap-maker. I am interested in uses for the milk I am already producing. When I first learned about soapmaking, I considered making bulk goat milk melt and pour. I have since come to see that this is not feasible. Even so, I am curious and like to understand the "why" behind things. I am okay with using lye.

Thank you for the link, Artemis, I will check it out.

 

[TheGecko]

I am coming from being a dairy farmer before being a soap-maker. I am interested in uses for the milk I am already producing. When I first learned about soapmaking, I considered making bulk goat milk melt and pour. I have since come to see that this is not feasible. Even so, I am curious and like to understand the "why" behind things. I am okay with using lye.

Well buying a M&P Goat Milk base won't let you use any of your goat milk soap...as previously noted, you can only add color and scent. If you try to add milk, the milk will go bad and the soap will have to be tossed.

I make GMS. Recipe is similar to my Regular Soap except I don't add Cocoa Butter.

I don't add any colorants to my GMS so unless I am using an FO that discolors, my soap is a nice cream colored. I get that by freezing my goat milk, mixing the lye solution in an ice batch (ice, water and salt) and not letting it get above 75F. I also refrigerate my GMS when the weather warms up. I learned from my first batch of GMS what happens with goat milk overheats...man it stinks!

Below is my recipe, you are more than welcomed to use it:

21.25% Coconut Oil
21.25% Palm Oil
12.50% Shea Butter
40.63% Olive Oil
4.38% Castor Oil

33% Lye Concentration
5% SuperFat

1 tea Kaolin Clay PPO
1 tea Sodium Lactate PPO

And the reasons why the percentages are so weird is because when I developed the recipe, I rounded off the ounces.

 

[fillycate]

Thank you, TheGecko, that is very generous and helpful.

Truly, buying melt and pour would not serve my needs. If melt and pour bases with my own goat milk were easy to make in bulk, I would have a non-perishable way to store my goat milk that I would use later. Since making large batches of melt and pour isn't realistic, I will probably leave attempting m&p soapmaking behind entirely.

In the summer, I make far more goat milk than in wintertime, such that I am often at a loss for what to do with it. I am making cheese, yogurt, kefir, and bottle raising calves with it. I just put some of my high-cream content Nigerian Dwarf goat milk into ice cube trays and may do so every day for some time to come. This means that every time I want to make a batch of soap, I will have frozen ice cubes of low-water content milk ready to go at the drop of a hat.

This is the backdrop to my interest in soap making, it is the direction I am coming from in all of it. I am excited and motivated and find the process of soapmaking intriguing and fascinating. The chemistry, the way the saponifying oils look as they are being stirred, how they look in the mold, how they cut, feel, all of it is a sensory delight and I am so happy to be on this adventure. Even so, I likely won't be motivated enough to do soap without goat milk.

I also have a deep fascination with using goat milk in every way I can, including skin care. I already take long baths in the whey from cheesemaking and put kefir on my skin. I have appreciated the effects.

 

[TheGecko]

Thank you, TheGecko, that is very generous and helpful.

Just paying it forward.

In the summer, I make far more goat milk than in wintertime, such that I am often at a loss for what to do with it. I am making cheese, yogurt, kefir, and bottle raising calves with it. I just put some of my high-cream content Nigerian Dwarf goat milk into ice cube trays and may do so every day for some time to come. This means that every time I want to make a batch of soap, I will have frozen ice cubes of low-water content milk ready to go at the drop of a hat.

I have several bags of Goat Milk and Coconut Milk cubes in my freezer. [/QUOTE]

I also have a deep fascination with using goat milk in every way I can, including skin care. I already take long baths in the whey from cheesemaking and put kefir on my skin. I have appreciated the effects.

Then let my introduce you to Patrick from Soapy Oaks Farms (Soapy Oaks Farm-Patrick). He's a bit chatty at times, but he makes all sorts of 'natural' products from all sorts of milks...goat, cow, water buffalo, donkey, biason, etc.

 

[fillycate]

Hi, Patrick!

 

[mtinetti61]

Is it possible to make a CP soap with 0 superfatting and add the SF oils (5%?) when rebatching?

 

[dotgiorgio]

I hope this is still on the subject:
When I rebatch it comes out fluffy. Does everyones?
I don't grate it, I just cut it into small cubes. Maybe that's why.
Any advise?

 

[TheGecko]

I hope this is still on the subject:
When I rebatch it comes out fluffy. Does everyones?
I don't grate it, I just cut it into small cubes. Maybe that's why.
Any advise?

Though I haven't done any Rebatching myself (have no interest), it's not much different than cooking.

Yes...every rebatch video I have seen, it comes out fluffy...same with most Hot Process...which is why the bars have a 'rustic' appearance. Which makes sense given that when the liquid heats up, it turns into steam and steam is air. Whisking and beat your soap into submission also produces air. So does stirring, which is why we smack our molds...to release trapped air.

Grating or small chunks doesn't really matter...you could feasible drop in whole bars, it will just take longer. Boiling a whole potato takes longer than boiling large chunks. Boiling large chunks of potatoes takes longer than small chucks. And if you want to thicken a soup...just grate in a potato.