What Do You Think of This? (No trace, no gel.)

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You will get a much better "stir" with a mixer, obviously, and I have soaps that I don't bother to bring to trace; namely the FOs that don't like to play nice. But I've been doing this awhile and can tell when the batter is mixed enough to hold together - that's just practice. And, you can just leave the mixed and poured batter in the molds until they come to trace on their own if you want to do fancy tops. But, I agree that newbies should stir until at least light trace, just to be sure.

I read Anne Watson's books years after I began soapmaking and regardless of the ratings, I've never been impressed with her methods.
 
Slow down a wee bit, folks.

OP: "...The first is that she says that soap does not need to be mixed until one gets trace. Apparently, with handheld mixers [aka stick blenders], this isn't required, because the lye and oils get thoroughly blended together well before that point. (She goes on to say that with hand mixing, you do indeed need to go until trace is reached.) I'd not heard of that before, but it seems believable...."

Response: "...She's full of hooey. When stick blending you still have to reach at least emulsion or the fats and lye/water will separate in the mold. ..."

Um, Anne's point is precisely that a stable emulsion can occur before actual signs of trace when one uses a highly efficient mixing device like a stick blender. How is that "full of hooey"?

***

OP: "...The second, which I find stranger, considering how important it seems to many soapers, is that there is basically no such thing as a 'gel stage'. To quote her, "Temperature during the setting period has little or nothing to do with soap setting." The only thing that warmth apparently does is prevents the formation of a "thin rind... that you can trim off"...."

Response: "...The no gel is definitely hooey, soap does have a very defined gel stage when it hits certain temps. Soap does not need to gel to set up though...."

As far as this issue, I gather you are assuming gel stage is the same as saponification, but I'll let Anne speak for herself:

"...Myth #7: Soap must be incubated.

Another fallacy is that soap must be kept warm after it’s poured into the mold. All sorts of little nests and incubators have been prescribed for this purpose. Some soap books give dire warnings that the soap won’t set if you even peek at it while it’s getting there.

According to this myth, soap has to go through a “gel stage.” Now, it’s true that soap becomes a kind of gel if you hold in the heat. Then, as it cools, it becomes solid and opaque—*just like soap that hasn’t gone through a “gel stage.”

Temperature during the setting period has little or nothing to do with soap setting. I’ve tried to make soap fail by pouring it into molds that don’t conserve heat and then putting them in a cold place. No matter what I did, the soap came out fine. In fact, when I asked other soapmakers about this, I learned that most milk soap mixtures are actually cooled. If a soap mixture doesn’t set, the reason is usually excess water in the recipe—*not temperature.

In some cases, though, warming may have other advantages. Some recipes produce soap with a sort of thin rind if the mixture isn’t kept warm. This rind doesn’t hurt anything, and you can trim it off—*but warming may prevent it entirely.

Also, some soapmakers report that warming creates a better texture in soap from the recipes they use. Others say warming makes the texture worse! In my own testing, I’ve noticed no difference at all. In any case, you will certainly get soap, whether you warm it or not...."

So, for those of you who put your soap in the fridge or freezer to prevent gel, do you find your soap does not saponify? It doesn't go through gel stage, right?

***

OP -- I really think you are not interpreting Anne's information correctly. It also bothers me that you are selectively quoting her words out of context. I will concede she may not be saying what she means in words that make sense to you, but that doesn't mean she's wrong. It's hard as an author to refine and adapt one's written words to ensure the reader always understands, unlike what a teacher can do with a student in the classroom. Anne is one of the most objective, factual authors writing introductory soap making books that I can think of. I might not always agree with her point of view, but I do not think she's full of hooey.
 
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Not much to add to the first issue (emulsifying oils and lye water will be enough but trace is a good insurance that soap is happening....) but I have a question on the second one.

I have observed that there are perhaps more than one temperature range for gel. I think gel / no gel is from a change in the soap salt 'crystal' structure, just the way the molecules are stacked or organized. Could there be two stages?

Here is a thread I started a couple of years ago. The soap is not pretty and has drag marks, but look at the apparent two gel phase structure - and I tried to describe what I saw while cutting the best I could. Could there be lets say no gel at T room to 120F, gel 1 from 120F to 140F and gel 2 from lets say 140F to 180F ? the temperature ranges are just possible examples, these will also differ with differing lye concentration (water discount). In another attempt I was able to suppress the gel stage completely by going with a steeper water discount. Gel 1 and gel 2 would be two different crystal structures, look how much darker the center is.

not to hijack this thread, but since we have so many new members than when I first posted this two gel stage question - any comments or ideas?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=26677&highlight=stages
 
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I was re-reading the book in question. It is one of the first ones I got when I got my Kindle, and I needed to re-read the portion in question before responding, and I got carried away, as it is one of my favorites.

There is nothing wrong with what she wrote. You can take any book and make anything out of it you want if you take enough out of context. She did sort of not make points as clear as could be, but her info is factual if read completely.
 
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Green soap -- I am not entirely sure what you're seeing in that soap is two gel stages, although it is true that soap doesn't change from one phase (solid) to another (gel) in one tidy jump. The difference in color is certainly due to varying levels of temperature and possibly moisture. The multiple rings could also be caused by an unusual, uneven rate of cooling after the center reached gel. This might have affected the calendula in the soap as well as the soap itself.

Not sure -- just throwing ideas out. I've been cleaning house all day today and my brain is rather fried, so my apologies if I sound like I am rambling. House cleaning is not my strong suit. :crazy:

Anyways, Auntie Clara recently did an intriguing study about moisture levels and gel vs. not gel. Her results might be somewhat related to what happened to you. Not sure, but I thought you might find it interesting to compare her experience with what you know about your soap. See: http://auntieclaras.com/2014/08/intentional-crop-circles-water-discount-as-a-design-tool/
 
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I read the blog on different water discount, I have experienced this when spoon swirling different soap batters with different water discounts - you get different textures - but not the same as different stages of gel.

I no longer see this effect since I use stand alone silicone molds now. The effect I showed was seen using wooden molds lined with silicone. I do not use them often but the thermal gradient from the inside of the loaf to the outer edges or 'rind; is huge as I had the loaf in the freezer. This could explain the 'standing wave ' effect.
 
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