What About /THIS/ Soap?

[Kitty_Boots]

All right.. I made up this recipe for 1 pound (453.59g)

Olive Oil: 45%
Coconut Oil: 30%
Canola Oil: 5%
Cocoa Butter: 5%
Shea Butter: 10%
Apricot Kernel Oil: 5%

I did the water/lye calculation with 5% Superfat: 151.1g water/64.18g NaOH

The values:

Hardness: 39
Cleansing: 20
Conditioning: 56
Bubbly: 20
Creamy: 19
Iodine: 59
INS: 151

I really wanted my creamy a bit higher and my INS a bit higher.. But this is the best I can get to keep everything in range of ideal..

Looking at this recipe.. Are there any obviously terrible things going on here? I'm so new to soapmaking.. I don't know how to judge the outcome (if I follow all directions properly).

Additionally.. I want to gel it (my last two loafs were not really gelled I don't think, they were not translucent at all - except maybe the second loaf a tiny bit). I would also like to know when it's best to cut this soap? 24 hours after pouring? Sooner? Later? How do I know? *stress*

All right.. Thanks for the help in advance!

 

[OliveOil2]

Are you going for palm free vegetarian? You will get lots of different opinions, but for me the coconut would be to high, and too cleansing, which can be drying to the skin for some. I would try a little bit larger loaf, since any weights that are off are going to be greater in a one pound batch, so maybe 2 pounds. I wouldn't use the apricot kernel oil for awhile, make these batches simple, the 5% canola oil isn't going to make much difference because the % is so low maybe take another 5% from the olive oil.
Hopefully you will get a response from a soaper that soaps palm free and vegetarian, I usually rely on sustainable palm, and sometimes animal fat, so I am not used to formulating what I think you want.

 

[Susie]

OK, I don't soap palm free/vegetarian either, but I think I can give a couple of pointers until the soapers that do get here tomorrow. (Please don't make the soap until they get here tomorrow!)

1. Too much CO. It would be way too drying to me. I use 15-20% max these days.
2. Any oil you only use 5% of can generally be skipped unless you KNOW what it brings to the soap. If you must use one of them, use 10% of one, then 10% of the other, then none of either. Then figure out what each bring to that soap.
3. Add 1 tsp of sugar PPO to boost bubbles. (dissolve it in 14 gm hot water subtracted from the total water, then add to the oils before the lye water goes in) This will also increase the heat in your soap, so gel will happen unless you take measures to prevent it.
4. That is going to be a really soft soap. I would think about adding some Sodium Lactate, if I were you.
5. I would cut somewhere between 18-48 hours. How long is going to depend on whether you use SL or not. If you do, you should be able to unmold and cut somewhere between 18-24 hours. Gently mash on one corner before unmolding. If you leave a dent, wait.

 

[IrishLass]

You'll probably get a hundred different opinions, but if it were me, I would just leave the apricot kernel oil out and give the extra 5% to the canola (or vice versa). They have very similar fatty acid profiles, so it would be kinda redundant to use both.

Your coconut oil amount is fine from where I'm sitting, but then again, high amounts of coconut oil don't bother me as long as I use a higher superfat to compensate for it's uber cleansing effects. If it were me making your recipe, I would superfat it at 8%.

As for the water amount, I would use 130.25g (a 33% lye concentration).

Other than those 3 things, nothing seems terribly out of place to me.

Regarding cutting....if your soap gels, you can usually cut it in 24 hours.

If it doesn't gel, I like to wait 36 to 48 hours to cut.


IrishLass

 

[Kitty_Boots]

Thank you for the replies so far.. I'm going to try and reformulate.

Olive: I'm not going for palm free/vegetarian.. Though I would like to keep the animals out of it hahaha. Thank you for the info about the oil %s

Susie: What does PPO mean? Thanks for letting me know how to get my soap to gel!!

IrishLass: I read somewhere about superfatting higher when using higher amounts of coconut oil. Thanks for that suggestion and when I should be cutting.

 

[houseofwool]

PPO = per pound of oil

 

[Seawolfe]

I think your coconut is too high as well, and I'm not keen on canola. However you might be on track with the Shea.

I have made this palm free & vegetarian (but not vegan because of the beeswax) soap before with clay, and it was a do again:

7% SF
Castor oil 5%
Beeswax 2%
Cocoa butter 10%
Coconut Oil 20%
Olive Oil 35%
Sweet Almond Oil 28%

Additives were sugar to the water before lye, and bentonite. Oh and silk in the lye water.

 

[Kitty_Boots]

Why don't you really like canola oil, Seawolfe? I might add a bit of beeswax to my soap.. But not sure if it needs it now.. I reformulated.

New Recipe for one pound (453.59g), 7% Superfatted

Coconut Oil: 25%
Castor Oil: 5%
Shea Butter: 12%
Cocoa Butter: 13%
Olive Oil: 45%

Water/Lye: 151.2g/61.7g

Qualities

Hardness: 41
Cleansing: 17
Conditioning: 56
Bubbly: 21
Creamy: 28
Iodine: 57
INS: 151

My bubbliness is a little low though.. I don't know what a bubble of 21 looks like, lol.

Can I use honey instead of sugar? And if I use honey.. How much should I add to which amount of water before the lye? Or can I add the honey when I get to trace.. Will it improve heat?

 

[traderbren]

To give you an opinion on "bubbly", I took a picture of one of my bars with a 12 on the bubbly scale.


It's plenty bubbly enough for me, and nice and creamy and conditioning. I'm one who finds CO above 20% to be uncomfortably drying. Looking at the numbers doesn't necessarily give you the best idea of what a soap will really be like sometimes.

This soap is at a 7 week cure, 5% SF.

 

[Obsidian]

Kitty, what kind of skin do you have? If its dry at all, you will want to drop the coconut down to 20%. Can you find palm oil? It would really help add to the creamy without reducing lather like a high amount of butters can.

Try not to get too hung up on the numbers, they are really just guidelines. For the most part, I only look at the cleansing. I like to keep it at 14 or under since I have dry skin. This is my basic bath bar and its very creamy with nice lather http://www.evernote.com/l/ANhDQBHkjKFIBqftHgX9vi57v55AzPC8YdM/

I know you said you'd prefer no animal fats but you should try lard in at least one batch, see what you think about it. If not, then try palm, target carries spectrum brand shortening which is 100% palm oil.

 

[Kitty_Boots]

Hmm does superfatting at 7% not make up for the potential drying of the coconut oil? I could up it to 8% SF? I read that having coconut oil over 30-35% can be too drying..

 

[Obsidian]

For many people, coconut over 20% is really drying. SF is very individual, some people like high, some lower. I use 20% coconut in my recipe and I have to SF at 8%.
Its little variable like this that is the reason behind the amount of test batches soapers make. You don't know what your skin likes until you make the soap and test it on yourself.
I really think you should try no more then 20% coconut for you first batch. I've seen a lot of newbies get discouraged due to how drying their early soaps are.

 

[Kitty_Boots]

Thanks! I've been reformulating to reduce the amount of coconut oil I'm using.. So far.. The two formulas I have with 15% Coconut Oil are as follows:

For one pound of soap

Recipe 1

Coconut Oil: 15%
Castor Oil: 5%
Shea Butter: 12%
Cocoa Butter: 13%
Olive Oil: 45%
Babassu Oil: 5%
Sal Butter: 5%

Hardness: 40
Cleansing: 14
Conditioning: 57
Bubbly: 18
Creamy: 31
Iodine: 59
INS: 144

Recipe 2

Coconut Oil: 15%
Castor Oil: 5%
Shea Butter: 15%
Cocoa Butter: 10%
Olive Oil: 45%
Palm Kernel Oil: 10%

Hardness: 40
Cleansing: 17
Conditioning: 57
Bubbly: 21
Creamy: 28
Iodine: 59
INS: 148

 

[Obsidian]

palm kernel oil and babassu will make a cleansing soap just like coconut. If you use those along with coconut, keep the total under 20% or you'll still have drying soap.

If you remove the palm kernel from recipe #2 and replace it with olive oil, it will be a much kinder soap. I can't comment of #1, I don't use babassu or sal.

 

[Kitty_Boots]

All right. Thank you for being so helpful! I really appreciate it! I'm racking my brain trying to make a lovely soap recipe since I've failed twice now.. I really want to put thought into what I'm making and I'm too stubbourn to just use a recipe from the internet!

 

[shunt2011]

I use PKO and Coconut in conjuction with each other at 22-25% and use an 7-8% SF. Even my husband with really dry skin loves it and doesn't find it drying at all.

Hence, why you need to try different things until you find what works best for you. It's a personal preference for sure. Everyones skin is different. I myself do not exceed 10-15% butters as they can inhibit your lather somewhat.

Yu can certainly give your recipes a try, making small batches. That's how I found what worked for me.

 

[hmlove1218]

Hi and welcome to the addiction Kitty! I'm a veg/palm-free soapmaker, so hopefully I can help you out a bit. I apologize in advance for the jumbled up-ness of this post lol.

I also started out using 25%-30% coconut, and it was drying to me, which is saying something because not much bothers my skin. I would also recommend dropping the coconut to between 15%-20%. I personally use 20% with a 5% superfat. Of you plan to use PKO, keep the total of coconut and PKO under 15%-20%, ex. 10% coconut and 10% PKO.

I typically keep the total of my butters below 10% since they can inhibit lather. Because of this, I typically stick to one type of butter per soap.

I tend to use a little more castor oil than normal at 7%-8%. I add 1 tbsp of sugar or honey PPO, too, because I love bubbles lol. Also, since my recipe is primarily liquid oils, I add 1 tsp of salt PPO. Both of these I disolve in my lye water before I add in the lye.

Seawolfe mentioned omiting the canola oil because it's been known to cause DOS.

I find beeswax to be quite cumbersom to include in soaping as it will solidify fairly quickly. I usually soap at room temp, so I quit using it early on. Plus, I didn't really see any pros from using it.

I actually like the looks of this recipe:

Coconut Oil: 25%
Castor Oil: 5%
Shea Butter: 12%
Cocoa Butter: 13%
Olive Oil: 45%

However, I would probably make these changes:

Coconut Oil: 20%
Castor Oil: 7%
Shea Butter: 10%
Cocoa Butter: 10%
Olive Oil: 53%

Or, if you would like to try palm or lard/tallow, you could use them at 20%-30% and take it from the olive oil.

And instead of supperfatting at 7%, I'd start out with only 5% and adjust from there.

 

[Kitty_Boots]

Ah thank you HM. I will put those numbers in my calculator and see what comes up!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Do indeed do that, it's always good to look - but don't dismiss a suggested recipe just because the calc numbers aren't what you think they should be. Many a great soap defies the numbers because the calcs don't know the whole story

 

[Susie]

^ Ditto what Craig said! While those magical seeming numbers seem like a new soaper's BFF, they can make you miss things.

Lard and Tallow have much the same numbers, so they should be exactly the same, right? You could not be more wrong. Lard yields a completely different quality than tallow does. This also stands true for some of the liquid oils. Trying new things and keeping good notes are a great way to learn.