What’s the madder with my madder?

[penelopejane]

The hard water aspect of this got me thinking about the use of sea salts and saltwater, which are both rich in magnesium and calcium. But... I’ve also read that magnesium and calcium in “hard water” contribute to soap scum and DOS. Do you know if bars made with sea salt or saltwater end up with DOS more quickly than the average bar, or if the soaps exacerbate soap scum?

I have used sea water in soap with no DOS.
I use sea salt that I know still retains the magnesium and other chemicals that occur naturally in sea water. So it is like reconstituted sea water but in a controlled way. I find this gives me a consistent result.
I have found adding soda bicarb to water has caused DOS consistently.

I also use citric acid in my soap to stop soap scum. I haven't heard that sea salt exacerbates scum. Salt just makes a soap hard.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

A new madder experiment and an update on earlier madder soaps:

First, here’s a photo with two soaps discussed above and a new one in the middle.

View attachment 41552

The soap on the left was made on June 20, so about 3 months ago. The second layer down is colored with madder colorant that was concentrated from an isopropyl alcohol and water infusion. It looks like all of the madder colors have faded quite a bit . The original photo is here. The bottom layer is rose clay. The way I colored the other layers is described above. The soap on the right was made on July 14th, so about 2 months ago. The original photo is in post #69. For that batch, I added the madder to half of the water and then added the lye to the same pitcher. I also made a batch of uncolored batter and mixed portions to get the color gradient. For this one, the pinks now look a bit brighter, or it could be the lighting. The middle soap is a new one I made this past weekend.

For the latest batch, I mixed household ammonia with madder root powder and let it sit for about two months. I shook the jar occasionally, let the powder fully settle and decanted the ammonia. With a little help from @DeeAnna and her Soapy Stuff web resource on using ammonia to make soap, I used the madder “dyed” ammonia as a full water replacement in my recipe and adjusted my NaOH accordingly. I also used a new small 4-bar mold and you can see that I ended up with my first partial gel. The color shade is good, if a bit intense, so I expect that I can get a nice pink by using the ammonia “dye” as a split, independent of the masterbatched lye water. I still need to think about whether I should add the lye water to the oils first and then the ammonia, or the other way around. I definitely do not want to release a big cloud of ammonia gas! Given how noxious ammonia fumes are, I do not recommend this technique for beginners. I will update as the soap cures.

A 3 week update on the soap made with ammonia - I can still smell an ammonia smell when I cut 0ff a piece of a smaller bar I made. The bar was made in an individual cavity mold and started out as 3”x3”x1”. I had cut it into two thinner pieces almost immediately after I made it. Today I cut a 1/2” thick slice off the end and the ammonia smell is faint, but present. The soap does not zap.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m back to report that at the ~ 6 week mark, I can still detect just the slightest scent of ammonia is the soap I made with madder in ammonia. The soap also has a rose FO, which might be affecting my ability to detect the ammonia. In any case, it’s starting to smell mostly like rose.

 

[Mtn5ro]

I made a batch last week using madder root. Should've read this thread first!

I added my madder root to a tiny bowl of traced oil to disperse it. At first I thought I added too much ( about a tablespoon) because it turned blue! Now I know it's a pH thing.

I used it anyway, thinking it would stay blue, and was pleasantly surprised when it turned pink the next day! Wished I used more can't wait to see if it's scratchy or not. I hope not.

 

[Mtn5ro]

http://imgur.com/gallery/pENrukq

That is a gorgeous color. I used manjistha powder and it turned caramel brown all over the outside. No vanilla EO or fragrance oil, just lavender, geranium and bergamot EO. I sprayed with alcohol, covered with box, wrapped in towels and put in preheated oven. Inside layers are good. Any ideas?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

http://imgur.com/gallery/pENrukq

That is a gorgeous color. I used manjistha powder and it turned caramel brown all over the outside. No vanilla EO or fragrance oil, just lavender, geranium and bergamot EO. I sprayed with alcohol, covered with box, wrapped in towels and put in preheated oven. Inside layers are good. Any ideas?

Rahmi hasn’t posted in a bit, but I’ve noticed that the natural colorants often end up a bit duller on the edges. I’m not sure why since it seems to happen on both the exposed and unexposed edges. I like your soap. You can trim the edges off if you don’t like it that way.

 

[curlycoat2]

I am curious why you (Mobjack) seem to find straining from the lye water to be fiddly when its pretty similar to straining a tea? The other advantage using the madder of either kind (tinctoria or cordifolia) is that you can use as much of it or as little of it as you would like to. The photos of madder that I showed in Modernsoapmaking were made with only 2Tbspns of madder in lye water.

With indigo it will depend on which supplier you purchased your indigo from as some suppliers don't sell the indigo that releases its blue particularly well and as such will produce a grey to grey blue tone no matter what technique you use.

Good to see lots of plant colors being talked about - my favourite part of soaping and yes the pay of fwith plants is the fading but equally that confirms that you have a natural product. If it doesn't fade something unnatural has been added to it

jo

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I am curious why you (Mobjack) seem to find straining from the lye water to be fiddly when its pretty similar to straining a tea? The other advantage using the madder of either kind (tinctoria or cordifolia) is that you can use as much of it or as little of it as you would like to. The photos of madder that I showed in Modernsoapmaking were made with only 2Tbspns of madder in lye water.

With indigo it will depend on which supplier you purchased your indigo from as some suppliers don't sell the indigo that releases its blue particularly well and as such will produce a grey to grey blue tone no matter what technique you use.

Good to see lots of plant colors being talked about - my favourite part of soaping and yes the pay of fwith plants is the fading but equally that confirms that you have a natural product. If it doesn't fade something unnatural has been added to it

jo

Hey there Jo! I have your e-book . Beautiful soaps! It’s a good reference for understanding the range of techniques that can be used to achieve the best results when using natural colorants. The easiest way to answer your question is that I like to experiment. I think I read somewhere that you have a science background and I do too, so you will understand that need to experiment. I’ve tried different ways to coax colors out of madder and indigo, which both have multiple plant pigments. The lye tea method works well enough for madder although I find that I have to strain it through a paper filter or cloth if I want to keep all of the powder out of my soap. It also produces a volcano in the container. That gets a little messy. I’ve also extracted madder using alcohol and was able to achieve a very bright pink without any brown overtones. My extractions in ammonia pulled strong color, but the pink wasn’t as pure.

I don’t have an aversion to micas, but I definitely prefer natural plant colorants when I can get the colors to behave. Yes, they fade, but the colors of the soaps I made in the summer are still pretty and some of them have mellowed into a nicer shade. I don’t sell, but have also considered the possibility that someone could have an allergy to an uncommon plant additive like madder, so I label everything I give away.

I have a question for you! Do you add goat milk to all of your recipes? If so, do you know how/why that helps with the color?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Updates on my madder soaps show in posts #39 and #58. The soaps have been stored in brown paper bags since the 8 week mark. The pinks have faded a bit, but interestingly, the speckles in the layered soap have disappeared. The madder tincture layer, which is the second layer from the top in the middle soap, has lost the most color and shows what looks like some migration of the pigment. The soap to the left, one of the first soaps I made, is colored with rose clay, which is the same colorant in the bottom layer of the middle soap. The clay color is holding well. I used BB’s Wild Rose in the soap on the right, which was made 6 months ago and the scent is still there, if faint. I likely used 3% ppo, but don’t have my notes handy.

ETA: info on the soaps described in posts #69 and #76, which also were stored in paper bags in the dark. These have probably faded a bit, but the colors are still plenty intense. The Wild Rose scent is [ETA: with a fresh nose, I would say “not quite”] gone from the soap made with madder in ammonia, which is the soap on the left. It seems to have disappeared right around the time the ammonia odor totally dissipated. The soap on the right still smells wonderful. I think I used MMS Somali Rose, but will need to check. [ETA: it’s BB White Ginger & Amber, not Somali Rose]

Details on how the soaps were made are above, or in linked posts.

 

[curlycoat2]

Clay will always stay the same. What you see is what you get pretty much depending on how much you use of course. It won't fade at all. Any plant colorant over time will fade no matter what technique you use it with. Its like flowers in a vase they will all go brown over time.

 

[szaza]

Thanks for the update @Mobjack Bay ! It looks like the madder in lye water holds up the longest, or is that just because it was made later? What do you think of the clay soaked in tincture? It doesn't really stand out next to the rose clay, but since the color was rather soft to begin with it's a bit harder to tell how much it has faded. Do you think soaking the tincture in clay helped in any way to make the color last longer? (Sorry, lots of questions, good morning and happy new year)

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Thanks for the update @Mobjack Bay ! It looks like the madder in lye water holds up the longest, or is that just because it was made later? What do you think of the clay soaked in tincture? It doesn't really stand out next to the rose clay, but since the color was rather soft to begin with it's a bit harder to tell how much it has faded. Do you think soaking the tincture in clay helped in any way to make the color last longer? (Sorry, lots of questions, good morning and happy new year)

You are very observant . I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well. My notes don’t record how long I let the clay soak, but it probably wasn’t for very long (impatience was likely at that time). A possible approach moving ahead would be to 1) dry the clay in the oven first, i.e. to ensure it has capacity to soak up the tincture and 2) let the dry clay soak in excess concentrated tincture, possibly overnight so it has a chance to soak up as much of the tincture as possible. The result might be a “rose clay” made with madder .

and Happy New Year to you, too! I look forward to reading your posts in 2020

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@szaza I forgot to answer your question about the madder in lye water soap. When I have a chance, I will take a better photo of the layered soap on the right in the bottom photo for a side-by-side comparison with the original photo.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Clay will always stay the same. What you see is what you get pretty much depending on how much you use of course. It won't fade at all. Any plant colorant over time will fade no matter what technique you use it with. Its like flowers in a vase they will all go brown over time.

This forum is a wonderful place to learn and share. A group of us are interested in how long the various plant colorants take to fade. We have learned that most all of the green plant colorants fade quickly, while madder, indigo and annatto last longer. The key questions we’ve been exploring are 1) how long do the other colors last, and 2) what are the best conditions for preserving the colors. We would welcome any insights you have based on your experiences with natural colorants.

 

[szaza]

I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well.

That's very interesting!! Now I'm thinking about soaking clay with other tinctures as well and see if it holds up. I just ruined my scale, so I won't be making much soap before I have a new one, but this sure makes the list of things I'd like to explore!

 

[szaza]

I look forward to reading your posts in 2020

Right back at ya!

 

[linne1gi]

Here’s another madder test run. For this soap I used 1 TBS madder in the lye water, which produced a small volcano. (1 TBS ppo produced the color intensity in the bottom layer) It’s then messy to strain the lye. The resulting color is intense, so it may be worth the trouble to get the color. This soap is a palm based recipe. I was also practicing using shapers to sculpt the layers for a gradient, mixing as I went up with uncolored batter from a second batch. The soap has to be at higher trace for sculpting and one must take care not to end up with bubbles in the soap . I’m planing to make a comparison soap with madder tincture soonish.

View attachment 40325

I have just started using natural colorants, so, I just want to say, wow, that’s beautiful soap. I think I’m going backwards, most people start out with natural colors and progress to micas. I’ve been using micas for 7 years and now I’m experimenting with natural colors!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have just started using natural colorants, so, I just want to say, wow, that’s beautiful soap. I think I’m going backwards, most people start out with natural colors and progress to micas. I’ve been using micas for 7 years and now I’m experimenting with natural colors!

I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

 

[Sally Scheibner]

You are very observant . I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well. My notes don’t record how long I let the clay soak, but it probably wasn’t for very long (impatience was likely at that time). A possible approach moving ahead would be to 1) dry the clay in the oven first, i.e. to ensure it has capacity to soak up the tincture and 2) let the dry clay soak in excess concentrated tincture, possibly overnight so it has a chance to soak up as much of the tincture as possible. The result might be a “rose clay” made with madder .

and Happy New Year to you, too! I look forward to reading your posts in 2020

What is the type of the tincture used?

 

[Sally Scheibner]

What is the type of the tincture used? ....?

I like clay better than herbs or flowers. Too unstable.
Tried alkanet but not impressed.
Spirilina & Alfalfa is a fair green additive.
Ground Dragonblood tears adds a slight pink tint, but little fragrance.
Cocoa & coffee works too.