Want to stop using palm oil, how to finish what I have left?

[aab1]

Unless someone can convince me not to, I want to stop using palm oil both due to having to mix it completely on each use and due to the white specks it leaves in soaps. I've only very recently started using it and plan to stop.

I make vegan soaps and was thinking of either replacing palm oil with babassu oil or another oil. Due to the cost, would using as little as 5% babassu oil make a difference in the soap or is it essentially wasted at such low amounts?

Also, I want to make a batch of soaps for myself and friends to get rid of my palm oil, would a 100% palm oil soap be good and if not can I use a very high percent (80% or more) of palm oil in order to get rid of it in as little soaps as possible and if so what other oils would be good to add to an 80% or more palm oil soap?

Thanks

 

[Obsidian]

You can't replace palm with babassu. Babassu is more like coconut, it will increase the lather and cleansing number of your soap. If you want to use use your palm quickly, why not a 50/50 OO/palm?

The best replacement for palm is lard/tallow but since you don't use animal fats, look into using shea or coco butter. There are planty of threads around about recipes without palm or lard.

I'm not crazy about palm either but not for the reasons you are. I don't get specks or have to melt each time. When I first got my palm, I melted it all and while it was cooling I stirred it every few minutes so the steric wouldn't sink to the bottom.

If you like how palm makes your soap, maybe look into a hydrogenated version. It doesn't have to be melted/mixed every time, you just scoop out what you need.

 

[aab1]

Thanks for the answer, after I posted I remembered this single oil soap page:

http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm

They give a 100% palm oil soap 5/5 for everything except 4/5 for conditioning so I might try that as I'd get rid of it in half as many soaps as I would using it at 50%.

I already use shea in most of my soaps at 5% currently, would increasing the shea to 10% be too much? I read too much shea can reduce lather. Or should I replace the palm oil with 5% cocoa butter?

I'd prefer to avoid a hydrogenated version as I want my soaps to be as natural as possible and I may want to advertise them on a natural health website which does not allow advertising anything that contains hydrogenated oil, although they are probably referring mostly to food items with that rule, I still prefer to avoid it.

For what reasons are you not crazy about palm if they are different reasons?

Thank you

 

[Obsidian]

I honestly can't help with formulating a palm free soap, I use lard instead. Check the forum, there are a couple active threads on the topic that should help you.

My palm soaps have a tendency to crack on the tops and I don't care for how fast it traces. As far as how the soap feels, I like that but lard is so much easier for me and producing all vegetable soap really isn't a concern for local sales.

I've never had any white specks from palm but I did get some streaking once, that was before I melted it all down though. I suppose if I could get cheap palm local I would continue to use it in some recipes. I only have about three lbs left and I won't be replacing it.

 

[aab1]

I did it, I got rid of all my palm oil in a batch of soap. I ended up not doing 100% palm oil as I also wanted to use some of my unrefined shea as I plan to switch to refined shea,

I ended up making a soap that's 71% palm oil, 10% coconut oil, 10% shea butter, 5% castor, 4% olive.

I also had Oregon fir and wintergreen essential oils I wanted to get rid of due to the instant thickening they cause and indeed about 5 seconds after I added these EOs it went from a very light trace to thick play dough, I had to force it into the molds and it was gelling minutes after pour... err... stuffing it into my individual cavity silicone molds and will probably be full of gaps because it was so thick. I even took the bit of extra "dough" and was able to roll it into a sphere shaped soap, it was that thick.

 

[Obsidian]

Let us know how you like the soap, it should be really nice and creamy. I bet it smells good even if you did have to force it into the mold. I wonder if you can take a chopstick to a batch like that during gel and stir it some to get the air pockets out?

 

[aab1]

Let us know how you like the soap, it should be really nice and creamy. I bet it smells good even if you did have to force it into the mold. I wonder if you can take a chopstick to a batch like that during gel and stir it some to get the air pockets out?

Yes, I really like the Oregon fir oil, it's very different than "regular" fir that smells like Christmas trees. I did about 90% Oregon fir/10% wintergreen so it smells almost only like like Oregon fir. It seems still very thick even in the gelled portion, I will leave them as is.

This soap will be just for myself and to give to friends anyway so it doesn't matter that it will probably be like Swiss cheese, I made 4 large bars, 3 flower shaped ones, and the hand rolled sphere. I've made similar Swiss cheese-like soaps with Oregon or wintergreen oils before due to how thick they make the batter and I still have a bit left so it won't be the last.

 

[LunaSkye]

I did it, I got rid of all my palm oil in a batch of soap. I ended up not doing 100% palm oil as I also wanted to use some of my unrefined shea as I plan to switch to refined shea,

I ended up making a soap that's 71% palm oil, 10% coconut oil, 10% shea butter, 5% castor, 4% olive.

I also had Oregon fir and wintergreen essential oils I wanted to get rid of due to the instant thickening they cause and indeed about 5 seconds after I added these EOs it went from a very light trace to thick play dough, I had to force it into the molds and it was gelling minutes after pour... err... stuffing it into my individual cavity silicone molds and will probably be full of gaps because it was so thick. I even took the bit of extra "dough" and was able to roll it into a sphere shaped soap, it was that thick.

This sounds like an interesting soap to make. I have red palm oil and I only like the fact that it really makes a harder soap. The color is also nice, but I am not a fan of it per se. I hope to see the resulst of your palm soap. :smile:

 

[Shalisk]

Unless someone can convince me not to, I want to stop using palm oil both due to having to mix it completely on each use and due to the white specks it leaves in soaps. I've only very recently started using it and plan to stop.

I make vegan soaps and was thinking of either replacing palm oil with babassu oil or another oil. Due to the cost, would using as little as 5% babassu oil make a difference in the soap or is it essentially wasted at such low amounts?

Also, I want to make a batch of soaps for myself and friends to get rid of my palm oil, would a 100% palm oil soap be good and if not can I use a very high percent (80% or more) of palm oil in order to get rid of it in as little soaps as possible and if so what other oils would be good to add to an 80% or more palm oil soap?

Thanks

WSP buys their Palm Oil from Plantations that are under strict guidelines from the round table, and 'plantation' menas that its not rain forest killing and is monkey safe.

The only reason I mention it is a friend at a mystics shop here in town asked about it, I told her where I got it, she did the research and said it passed mustard on her 'vegan friendly' rule...

Information can be found here:
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.co...ID=3988&ProductName=Crafters+Choice™+Palm+Oil

(11th Question Down)

and Round Table Information Here:
www.rspo.org


I was more comfortable with it after I read.

HTH

 

[lsg]

I am now trying to buy my palm from suppliers who sell sustainable palm products. I love palm in my soaps and would not like to give it up. I would rather pay a little more for a sustainable product.

 

[aab1]

My main annoyance with it is having to melt it all to mix it each time, I already bought it from a sustainable source.

Thanks

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If that is the only problem, can you melt it once and split it up in to smaller containers, each containing a certain amount? Use one per batch, or multiples for larger batches. Might be a tad easier than cutting out palm completely, but also avoiding the streaky result.

 

[cmzaha]

I am now trying to buy my palm from suppliers who sell sustainable palm products. I love palm in my soaps and would not like to give it up. I would rather pay a little more for a sustainable product.

Cibaria Soap Supply sells sustainable palm. I tried not using palm for a short time in my vegan soaps and had some negative feedback from customers mentioning that their soap was not lasting as long so back to palm. I really makes a difference in the longevity of soap. In my non-vegan soap I still use some palm along with the lard, just less palm

 

[aab1]

Cibaria Soap Supply sells sustainable palm. I tried not using palm for a short time in my vegan soaps and had some negative feedback from customers mentioning that their soap was not lasting as long so back to palm. I really makes a difference in the longevity of soap. In my non-vegan soap I still use some palm along with the lard, just less palm

I know it may not work this way, but since palm kernel oil is harder than palm oil, wouldn't it add more longevity than palm oil? Are there other vegan oils that would add longevity like perhaps coconut (which I use in high amounts in most of my soaps), cocoa butter or others?

In any case, about what percent palm oil do you need to use to add considerable longevity to the soap?

Thanks

 

[Obsidian]

Coconut doesn't add longevity, just hardness. Hardness does not equal long lasting. Coconut oil soap is highly soluble so it will dissolve quicker then other soaps. palm kernel oil is not a sub for regular palm, it adds similar properties as coconut oil or babassu.
I'll see if I can find the post that talks about solubility in soap.

 

[Obsidian]

I can't find the post I was looking for but I have the info saved to my comp. This was written by Deeanne

"So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal."

 

[aab1]

Thanks, cocoa butter seems to be one of the closest oils for high palmitic and stearic acids. How much would I need to use to make a longer lasting soap and how much would I need to use if I used palm oil? Shea butter also has high stearic acid which I already use in my soaps. Would a mix of cocoa butter and shea butter also contribute to a longer lasting soap like palm oil would and do you need to use a relatively high percentage?

Thanks

 

[Obsidian]

You can start with this and fiddle around the the % in soapcal until you get numbers you like. With a high percent of olive oil, the recipe hardness numbers will be lower but cured OO soap is very hard and lasts a good while.

60% olive oil
25% coconut oil
10% shea butter or coco butter (or a combo of both)
5 % castor

 

[aab1]

Thanks, but I'm trying to make a coconut oil based soap with a high percentage (60-75%) of coconut oil. I already have an olive oil based recipe I like but I find high coconut oil soaps to be very different and prefer their whiter color and non slimy and hard feel.

Does something like this sound good:

75% coconut oil
10% apricot kernel oil
5% shea butter
5% cocoa butter
5% castor oil

I'd probably do a 15-20% superfat to compensate for the high coconut oil amount.

Does this sound like it would make a good fairly long lasting soap? Any oils I should add, remove, or adjust percentages?

Thanks

 

[aab1]

By the way my 71% palm oil, 10% coconut oil, 10% shea butter, 5% castor, 4% olive oil soap is far from white and is more beige/yellow, so as I suspected the palm oil seems to be contributing to a not-perfect-white soap like I'm trying to make, so that's one more reason I'd prefer to avoid it. I just realized the fir oil isn't clear so that's surely contributed to the yellowish color.

Here's a photo showing how they came out (on the right) with gaps since the batter was like play dough along with the ball I was able to make a minute or so after mixing since it got so thick, for comparison the 4 soaps on the left are 100% coconut oil SF'ed at 20%:

I'm trying to come up with a recipe that's as white as my 100% coconut oil soaps but with better properties, though I still like those very much.