Very strange soaping experience *Update*

[Guest]

Alright, just had a very strange soaping experience. Really need some advice now.

18 oz Coconut Oil (75%)
6 oz Mango Butter (25%)
3.75 oz Lye
6.5 oz Distilled Water

Melted oils.... added lye solution.... reached light trace quickly.

Added 1.5 oz fragrance oil and 1/4 cup spearmint leaves.

Mixture very quickly started browning and separating, became the consistency of oily separated apple sauce.

I continued SB'ing, the mix just kept getting darker and the consistency remained like chunky, oily applesauce.

I added about 1/2 cup of warm distilled water, mixture started volcanoeing a bit...... I continued stirring/SBing which seemed to solve the separation problem, and it reached heavy trace very quickly.

At this point it was a dark brown color. I poured into the mold, wrapped, and placed in the oven to set up.

Any ideas on what might have happened here?

 

[I love soap!]

Sorry

I use soap base, so the lye has already been added when i get it so i can't help sorry.

 

[heartsong]

x

i believe you had a f/o seizure. you're high in saturated fats which moved things along faster. some olive oil would have slowed things down some. on another thread i read that liquid lecithin-a tsp per pound of oil-will slow trace, too.

you might add your f/o to your oils before adding the lye. this helps with the "touchy" ones.

what was your soaping temperature? you might consider rtcp. (room temp c/p)

don't feel alone-it happens to us all-f/o's are always such an adventure! it keeps us humble.

monet

 

[Guest]

Thanks Heartsong.

I did soap hotter than usual -- about 120-140° -- usually I put my lye solution in an ice bath while my oils are melting, didn't do that this time.

So seizing from FO can = separation as well?

Any ideas on what caused the color to turn such a dark brown color so quickly?

 

[Lindy]

I've had that happen without any FO in it - when that has happened to me I end up doing HP to get it come back. I don't know what caused it to go so dark though - what was your FO? Also I add my mint leaves (crushed) just before I pour to keep them from colouring the whole batch.

 

[heartsong]

x

you got me there-maybe the color change is a chem. reaction (scorching?) to the lye?

i think the separation might also have been the high temp of the oil meeting the colder lye water.

i usually c/p at 90-100 degrees or else room temp untried f/o's.

 

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure the lye solution was hotter than the oil.

I'm also thinking that the spearmint leaves might have made the soap turn brown, I poured them in at light trace and SB'd the heck out of them as the soap was separating, trying to get it to become smooth again.

Might have caused them to discolor the soap....

 

[heartsong]

x

i believe you're right-DUH! didn't think of the peppermint leaves!

 

[Guest]

I wasn't expecting the spearmint leaves to discolor the soap..... will be folding them in gently just before pouring next time.

 

[Vinca Leaf]

I've had FO in too hot a solution separate out...I didn't know what it was at the time, but after hearing others stories that's what it is/was....

Peppermint leaves...I dunno, never used them!

What type of FO was it?

 

[surf girl]

I'm guessing, because I don't use FOs. I only read about them As per heartsong, I believe you had a seize, and given how innocuous everything else about your procedure was, I would suspect the FO is the culprit.

I used to try hard to get my lye and oils to roughly the same temp. Now I don't care. It doesn't matter. So I doubt the temperature differential is a concern.

A quarter cup of spearmint [ETA: oops, peppermint] leaves is a lot of herb for a small batch - I have only used about 1 tsp to 1 tbsp PPO of fresh herbs (for 32 oz, that would be 10-30mL; you used 62.5 mL for 24 oz). I don't know if that would discolour your batch, though. In fact, I doubt it.

I've gotten that kind of separated applesauce consistency twice, with some overheating issues. Particularly with my un-simmered wine extravaganza of alcohol/sugar. If it's any consolation, they rebatched fine.

 

[MikeInPdx]

Don't feel lonesome.....I have a couple of florals and spice FO's that cause the same thing. Next time, just pop it into a crock pot and cook it until it's about the consistency of mashed potatoes and plop it in the molds from there.

 

[IrishLass]

75% coconut/25% mango (or 70/30) is a great recipe. It's one that I like to use on a fairly regular basis and I always soap it at 120 degreesF with no problems.

Based on my past experiences with ricing/separation incidences after the addition of certain frisky F/Os, my thoughts are that it was your F/O that caused your ricing/separation issues.

As for the browning, I'm not exactly sure. I've had soaps turn dark brown on me during cure because of using F/Os with vanilla in them, but it was only after the soap was unmolded and cut and curing for a week or more that it started gradually turning brown on me. I've never experienced my soap batter turning dark brown right there in the pot before unless I added certain additives like coffee or something like that. Light to medium tan, maybe, but never dark brown. I wonder if it had anything to do with the mint and stickblending it into your batter? I agree with Surf Girl that that was a lot of mint leaves you added for such a small batch, and because I know that over time mint leaves turn brown in soap, I'm wondering if the process of having stickblended them into your batter could have sped up the process of them oxidating and turning brown sooner? Well, that's my theory.


IrishLass

 

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this.

After doing a fair amount of research (including reading some info on the fragrance oil supplier's website), it seems the following are to blame:

1. Soaping too hot for the fragrance oil's liking (surfgurl, soaping at this temp would probably have been just fine w/out the FO as you said, but some FOs do better with cooler temps apparently )

2. Using too much spearmint, and then SB'ing it too much afterwards (I'm almost CERTAIN this is what caused the dark brown color -- the color didn't start changing until I began SB'ing the spearmint leaves, and the more I SB'd, the darker it got until I ended up with dark chocolate brown).

As of this morning, the soap seemed OK, no zap, hard as a rock. The FO came through nicely, but there's a strange secondary smell. Smells slightly like ammonia. Could this be from the overload of SB'd spearmint?

 

[MikeInPdx]

The FO came through nicely, but there's a strange secondary smell. Smells slightly like ammonia. Could this be from the overload of SB'd spearmint?

It's probably from your FO. I've had this happen on a few batches and it will most likely go away in a few days.

 

[Guest]

It's probably from your FO. I've had this happen on a few batches and it will most likely go away in a few days.

I hope so.

 

[cambree]

Thanks Heartsong.

I did soap hotter than usual -- about 120-140° -- usually I put my lye solution in an ice bath while my oils are melting, didn't do that this time.

So seizing from FO can = separation as well?

Any ideas on what caused the color to turn such a dark brown color so quickly? Mixture very quickly started browning and separating, became the consistency of oily separated apple sauce. I continued SB'ing, the mix just kept getting darker and the consistency remained like chunky, oily applesauce.

I had this same problem and situation!

I know for sure it was the mismatch of lye temperature to oils.

This is my 2nd time with "HOT PROCESS" soaping. I thought the oil/lye temp did NOT have to match... but I was wrong!

Don't feel lonesome.....I have a couple of florals and spice FO's that cause the same thing. Next time, just pop it into a crock pot and cook it until it's about the consistency of mashed potatoes and plop it in the molds from there. Smile

I don't know if you have more success with HP soaping. I did not use any FO. I did add cocoa powder to it after trace. I cooked it for almost 2 hours. Still no mash potatoes.

PH is was 11 or 12... too alkaline. I don't want to throw it out and want to rebatch. Maybe use as laundry soap? Any suggestions? :cry:

 

[Guest]

Update:

I tried this version again tonight. This time I soaped much cooler -- 100° oil, room temp lye solution -- added the FO at light trace -- used much less spearmint (at the end) and mixed it in gently without SB'ing.

HUGE difference. No separation, no browning, no accelerated trace. Everything as it should be.

I've concluded the problems were A) soaping too hot for the FO's liking (causing separation) and B) using too much spearmint and SB'ing it which probably released the spearmint's oils, turning the soap brown.

 

[Vinca Leaf]

Sweet! I'm glad you tried it again!

 

[surf girl]

That's great! Thanks for the update - it's always so cool to know how things pan out.