Uncertain what's happening here

[Gemmali]

Hello Everyone!

Okay I made my first cold process soap in September and I really do love doing it already! I have watched countless videos, read tons of blogs and comments on videos and felt I was ready! I felt confident I was ready for anything that came; When it accelerated I didn't panic, I knew I just had to hurry. When it got hot I knew to move it someplace cooler. When it wouldn't come out of the molds I knew to be patient and wait. However, I'm not really sure whats going on with the soap right now. Everything went from fluid to pudding pretty quickly. I keep going over it in my head but I'm still not sure what happened, but perhaps I over blended. Even though the bars felt like they were pretty solid, after four days they were after all super soft on the bottom and very difficult to unmold, even after being in the freezer. I used a 12 cavity brambleberry mold because I've not yet gotten a loaf mold. Its now a must have. I waited until the soap stopped losing weight, marking a bar and weighing once a week and making sure to turn the bars and give them ample air flow. Five weeks in and there has been no change! SUCCESS!

Excitedly I took a few bars to my sister. We cut one and upon inspection the color was still very dark in the very center, kind of wet looking. The whole bar is quite soft actually, but more so on the inside. Using the soap feels alright if not a bit slick, but after letting it sit just a little bit the cut edges feel almost like gel.. similar to the inside of a cucumber? maybe a little more solid but still similar. Its been a few days since my sisters house and I just used a piece here at home. I have a proper soap tray while she doesn't and it feels less slick and gel like here, though it still doesn't feel right.

I don't recall tutorials covering this one. Do they just need more time to cure or did I do something perhaps that was just a bit off? Could it have been the spices?

Here's my recipe, calculated at soap.calc which is adapted from beginner friendly recipes shared freely through many different online sources. I've got to learn to pare down for smaller stuff for sure! I was just trying to fill my mold but definitely over shot here...

My batter base weight was 58oz before fragrance, color, clay and SL, and I had a superfat of 5%

Water 14.82 oz
Lye 5.58 oz
Coconut and Olive oils 13.65 oz
Avocado and Caster oils 5.85 oz
Blueberry pumpkin fragrance oil 1.5 oz
sodium lactate 2.5 teaspoons
Kaolin clay 2.5 teaspoons
and about 1 scant tablespoon of pumpkin pie blend I created for color *nutmeg, clove, cinnamon and ginger*

I mixed my oils and lye together at about 85 degrees. They were only two degrees off from each other when I began. I put the clay and SL in at the end. Still not entirely sure what I did wrong at this point. These bars smell amazing but they are not very pretty lol I will try again though!

 

[Fargood]

I think you may have transposed a digit in calculating the water. The lye appears correct at 5.5 ounces, but the water looks to be about 2 ounces off. Also, because you are not using a hard oil such as Palm or Lard, A water discount may have helped cure the bars faster. Some of the guys and gals here may have a stronger theory. Based on the evidence, I think there was too much water in the batch.

I don’t make pure OO soap, but from what I’ve read, the bars can take up to a year to cure. You may need to be very patient with these bars.

 

[Cellador]

How much of each oil separately?

EDITED TO ADD: Also, how did you get a weight of 58oz when the recipe shows about 40 oz.?

 

[cmzaha]

It is 39 oz of oil, with a total batch weight of 60 oz using the full water. Anyhoo, to many soft oils and not anywhere near enough cure time. Using what is considered full water gives you a 27.3 lye concentration. You should be soaping all the soft oils like this recipe with min 35% lye concentration. In soap calc you can pick the tick box that lets you pick lye concentration and type in the 35%. Many of us soap with a 33% lye concentration but that is when we are using lards, palm tallow, hard butters etc. The choice is in box #3 choice 2. You just need to let your soaps cure a few more months and they should be fine

 

[psfred]

I made a soap with soy and canola oil with some soy wax added to harden it up. Stayed soft for months, but eventually became very nice soap. You will have to wait a while with that much olive oil, I think, for it to fully cure.

I would only use full water for hot process soap, it's unnecessary in cold process and can give you excessive shrinkage.

 

[Gemmali]

How much of each oil separately?
39ITED TO ADD: Also, how did you get a weight of 58oz when the recipe shows about 40 oz.?

I hadn't realized I'd made that error when writing up my post. I must remember not to talk and type at the same time.. my oil/water was 39 oz. I just went back and double checked the screen cap for the soap calc page I saved. Thank you for pointing out my error. I do appreciate it. individually the oils were:

Avocado 5.85 oz
Castor 5.85 oz
Coconut 13.65 oz
Olive 13.65 oz

I think you may have transposed a digit in calculating the water. The lye appears correct at 5.5 ounces, but the water looks to be about 2 ounces off. Also, because you are not using a hard oil such as Palm or Lard, A water discount may have helped cure the bars faster. Some of the guys and gals here may have a stronger theory. Based on the evidence, I think there was too much water in the batch.

I don’t make pure OO soap, but from what I’ve read, the bars can take up to a year to cure. You may need to be very patient with these bars.

I have, for now, put them back up on the shelf to continue curing. I'll make sure to consider harder oils next time. Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it.

It is 39 oz of oil, with a total batch weight of 60 oz using the full water. Anyhoo, to many soft oils and not anywhere near enough cure time. Using what is considered full water gives you a 27.3 lye concentration. You should be soaping all the soft oils like this recipe with min 35% lye concentration. In soap calc you can pick the tick box that lets you pick lye concentration and type in the 35%. Many of us soap with a 33% lye concentration but that is when we are using lards, palm tallow, hard butters etc. The choice is in box #3 choice 2. You just need to let your soaps cure a few more months and they should be fine

I will find more information about water discounts and take notes. I wondered about that after and how I could have/should have handled that. I guess I wasn't quite as prepared as I believed. Always more to learn eh? Thank you for the information here as well. I'll be taking note for my next batch!

I made a soap with soy and canola oil with some soy wax added to harden it up. Stayed soft for months, but eventually became very nice soap. You will have to wait a while with that much olive oil, I think, for it to fully cure.

I would only use full water for hot process soap, it's unnecessary in cold process and can give you excessive shrinkage.

I've put the majority of bars back up, though I wonder at this point, the parts we've cut, should we just put those up as well even though we've been using them? I'm not sure if you can actually do that once you've started rinsing over it with water..

 

[cmzaha]

you can always put the soap back up to cure

 

[penelopejane]

Your fruit or vegetable purée amount has to come out of the water amount in the recipe. So if you use 1 Tbsp of pumpkin reduce the amount of water by 1 Tbsp. That much extra “water” in a recipe especially at 27% lye concentration makes a big difference.

Also, I’d reduce the castor oil from 15% to 5% as I find castor oil over 5% makes a sticky soap.

Putting soap in the freezer won’t help you unmold quicker. In fact since you are slowing saponification it is likely to extend the unmold time.

Why are you putting your soap in the freezer? Saponification makes soap hot - that is normal.

 

[DeeAnna]

A bit off topic, but I've climbed on my soapbox and need to vent a bit --

This idea of taking a "water discount" from "full water" is used a lot. I know this idea is firmly entrenched in small-scale soap making and it's not going to go away just because I want it to. But I wish it would.

"Water discount" and "full water" make utterly no sense, speaking as a person who comes to soap making from a chemistry science-y background. They don't have any defined, real, and useful meaning when you look at the math and science of the saponification reaction.

Start using lye concentration or water:lye ratio and pick a setting that works best for your soaping style and the type of soap you're making. Fuhgeddabout whether it's "full water" or whether you're using a "water discount." If you're not sure what lye concentration or water:lye ratio might work well, I have a table here with guidelines to get you started: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

 

[SaltedFig]

A bit off topic, but I've climbed on my soapbox and need to vent a bit --

This idea of taking a "water discount" from "full water" is used a lot. I know this idea is firmly entrenched in small-scale soap making and it's not going to go away just because I want it to. But I wish it would. ...

Regarding this particular soapbox ...
The newest soapmaking calculator (being designed right here, right now) is continuing the "full water" concept ... the default water is set at 2.5:1.
If you could lend a hand to making a grass-roots type change (changing the default lye concentration in the calculator that most likely will get recommended from here) by suggesting that the default lye concentration be a little less ... wet ... , I reckon you would stand a better chance of enacting the change that you want to see in the soaping community - just sayin'

@Gemmali - I agree with the others that have suggested that your castor is too high - 15% can make your soap quite soft and sticky. In combination with using a low lye concentration (lots of water in your recipe), you will need to wait a while before the soap hardens up, and it will never get very hard (although it will likely end up quite lovely after a long time). If you modify the recipe by lowering the castor to around 3-5% and increase the lye concentration to around 33%, you will notice quite a difference. You can replace the 10% with olive, but replacing the 10% castor with butter (like cocoa or shea butter) will give you a boost in your hard oils without losing the skin feel you seem to be aiming for, and will give you a much harder soap

*edited to fix typo (missing letter)

 

[DeeAnna]

@SaltedFig -- Duly noted and action taken. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/round-2-soapmakingfriend-com.71833/page-5#post-725408

 

[Gemmali]

you can always put the soap back up to cure

Good to know I've let my sister know to stick her bars up someplace airy, and have put my cut bar back up with my others for now as well

Your fruit or vegetable purée amount has to come out of the water amount in the recipe. So if you use 1 Tbsp of pumpkin reduce the amount of water by 1 Tbsp. That much extra “water” in a recipe especially at 27% lye concentration makes a big difference.

Also, I’d reduce the castor oil from 15% to 5% as I find castor oil over 5% makes a sticky soap.

Putting soap in the freezer won’t help you unmold quicker. In fact since you are slowing saponification it is likely to extend the unmold time.

Why are you putting your soap in the freezer? Saponification makes soap hot - that is normal.

There was no fruit in the batter at all, only the spice mix of cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves and ginger. I'm a million years too early to be trying anything fancy yet, but I totally want to! I'll definitely make a note of the caster oil amounts for the future.

I only put it in for about 15 minutes after a few days when I was ready to unmold, as that's what seen and read others to have done to help, particularly with the heavy duty molds. It didn't help all that much though honestly so I likely won't try it in the future. The only thing I did before then was to take the batter to sit in a room that was cooler than my kitchen. Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate you taking the time

A bit off topic, but I've climbed on my soapbox and need to vent a bit --

This idea of taking a "water discount" from "full water" is used a lot. I know this idea is firmly entrenched in small-scale soap making and it's not going to go away just because I want it to. But I wish it would.

"Water discount" and "full water" make utterly no sense, speaking as a person who comes to soap making from a chemistry science-y background. They don't have any defined, real, and useful meaning when you look at the math and science of the saponification reaction.

Start using lye concentration or water:lye ratio and pick a setting that works best for your soaping style and the type of soap you're making. Fuhgeddabout whether it's "full water" or whether you're using a "water discount." If you're not sure what lye concentration or water:lye ratio might work well, I have a table here with guidelines to get you started: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

I'm not entirely sure what my soaping style is yet, but I will add this link to the once again growing resources and keep learning, Thank you

Regarding this particular soapbox ...
The newest soapmaking calculator (being designed right here, right now) is continuing the "full water" concept ... the default water is set at 2.5:1.
If you could lend a hand to making a grass-roots type change (changing the default lye concentration in the calculator that most likely will get recommended from here) by suggesting that the default lye concentration be a little less ... wet ... , I reckon you would stand a better chance of enacting the change that you want to see in the soaping community - just sayin'

@Gemmali - I agree with the others that have suggested that your castor is too high - 15% can make your soap quite soft and sticky. In combination with using a low lye concentration (lots of water in your recipe), you will need to wait a while before the soap hardens up, and it will never get very hard (although it will likely end up quite lovey after a long time). If you modify the recipe by lowering the castor to around 3-5% and increase the lye concentration to around 33%, you will notice quite a difference. You can replace the 10% with olive, but replacing the 10% castor with butter (like cocoa or shea butter) will give you a boost in your hard oils without losing the skin feel you seem to be aiming for, and will give you a much harder soap

I really want to learn to make soap with good skin loving qualities especially for my grandson who has really bad eczema. I will try this again with some of the changes you've suggested and see how that changes things for me. I'm determined to get this right! Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate the advice

 

[SaltedFig]

I really want to learn to make soap with good skin loving qualities especially for my grandson who has really bad eczema. I will try this again with some of the changes you've suggested and see how that changes things for me. I'm determined to get this right! Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate the advice

Gemmali, a lot of us start soaping in the hope that it will help a skin condition in our families, and sometimes just a change to a more gentle soap with it's natural glycerin left in can make an amazing difference - good on you for thinking to try this!

I wasn't going to mention it earlier, but I think it would also be good to drop the coconut right down, as high coconut soaps strip the skin of natural oils and can be too harsh for sensitive skin (some people don't seem to be affected by coconut soap, which is why it's worth trying for yourself when you start).
A gentle soap, like an olive soap, is more likely to leave some of the skins natural oils behind, so replacing the coconut with olive, or some hard fats or butters, will lower the "cleansing" value of the soap (which is a good thing - the soap will still clean, even when this value is at zero, so the name "cleansing" on soap calculators is a little misleading).
The downside is that you won't get as many bubbles from the soap (coconut in the recipe, or palm kernel oil or babassu butter, all add bubbles, but also have this strong oil stripping effect).

If you want to boost the bubbles back up again, you can add a little honey to your cooled lye water (the lye water will heat back up again, so watch out for that and let it cool again before adding to your oils). The sugars in the honey are the bubble boosters

(I hope it helps, but sometimes any soap, even the mildest, is too much for exzema skin, unfortunately. All the best ).

 

[Gemmali]

Gemmali, a lot of us start soaping in the hope that it will help a skin condition in our families, and sometimes just a change to a more gentle soap with it's natural glycerin left in can make an amazing difference - good on you for thinking to try this!

I wasn't going to mention it earlier, but I think it would also be good to drop the coconut right down, as high coconut soaps strip the skin of natural oils and can be too harsh for sensitive skin (some people don't seem to be affected by coconut soap, which is why it's worth trying for yourself when you start).
A gentle soap, like an olive soap, is more likely to leave some of the skins natural oils behind, so replacing the coconut with olive, or some hard fats or butters, will lower the "cleansing" value of the soap (which is a good thing - the soap will still clean, even when this value is at zero, so the name "cleansing" on soap calculators is a little misleading).
The downside is that you won't get as many bubbles from the soap (coconut in the recipe, or palm kernel oil or babassu butter, all add bubbles, but also have this strong oil stripping effect).

If you want to boost the bubbles back up again, you can add a little honey to your cooled lye water (the lye water will heat back up again, so watch out for that and let it cool again before adding to your oils). The sugars in the honey are the bubble boosters

(I hope it helps, but sometimes any soap, even the mildest, is too much for exzema skin, unfortunately. All the best ).

This was a great place for me to start since I had most of this at home. I actually need to find something to replace the coconut oil as much as possible because it seems he's been blessed with my hypersensitivity to coconuts. The oil dried out is skin like the sahara in summer. poor little guy. I realized the cleansing quality listed through soap calc had this above the target range and felt like aww nuts when I realized it after. Its my first go so definitely a learning batch. I'm just not certain if I can replace all the coconut except when making castille soap, as most advice I've been given locally is that soap is best made with coconut in the mix. I'm certainly taking lots and lots of notes since posting this! Thank you for the information about honey as well. I know its amazing for healing, I just didn't know it could make bubbles too

 

[SaltedFig]

Coconut oil is not necessary in soap, but it is very popular and common because it makes excellent bubbles.

If you are looking to replace it because of coconut sensitivity, palm kernal oil and babassu oil have the same properties and can be used as substitutes (they create lots of bubbles and have a high cleansing value, so they will also strip the skin of it's natural oils).
Limiting these 3 oils to under 20% in total seems to be the most common recommendation around here (with the exception of salt bars, which become amazingly mild after a very long cure), but I would go much lower for someone with very sensitive skin (5% or less).

It probably seems like a huge amount to learn, but you'll get the hang of it pretty quick if you stick around here (and it sounds like you have a few local soapers too, which is always fun)!

 

[Gemmali]

Coconut oil is not necessary in soap, but it is very popular and common because it makes excellent bubbles.

If you are looking to replace it because of coconut sensitivity, palm kernal oil and babassu oil have the same properties and can be used as substitutes (they create lots of bubbles and have a high cleansing value, so they will also strip the skin of it's natural oils).
Limiting these 3 oils to under 20% in total seems to be the most common recommendation around here (with the exception of salt bars, which become amazingly mild after a very long cure), but I would go much lower for someone with very sensitive skin (5% or less).

It probably seems like a huge amount to learn, but you'll get the hang of it pretty quick if you stick around here (and it sounds like you have a few local soapers too, which is always fun)!

And here I thought I was totally ready No, it is a lot to learn and I've been preparing myself for my first batch for nearly a year. I did it confidently even if my batch was off so I'm really grateful to everyone who shares and advises. More notes with this one, and an even greater curiosity now about other types of oils. I've got a bunch of different soaps I want to make, family excited to help me test and little girls wanting popsicle rainbow soaps by the dozens. a good recipe for everyone is my target right now though and really getting myself familiar with these little tweaks and nuances to make good recipes. Thank you again for the help. I'm gonna look around at more stuff here and online as well ^-^

 

[Teapot]

Gemmali, I just wanted to say well done for putting in all the effort, you are absolutely going about it the right way!

It sounds like you've done lots of research, and your first batch has been an excellent learning opportunity, and it might turn out to be an excellent soap, in time. Stick around here, there is so much knowledge and information here! I think you're going to be making some amazing soaps

 

[penelopejane]

You might want to try colour and fragrance free for someone suffering from eczema. DH has it and finds it best to stick to a plain soap. Everyone’s eczema and skin is different though so trial and error is necessary.

 

[Gemmali]

Gemmali, I just wanted to say well done for putting in all the effort, you are absolutely going about it the right way!

It sounds like you've done lots of research, and your first batch has been an excellent learning opportunity, and it might turn out to be an excellent soap, in time. Stick around here, there is so much knowledge and information here! I think you're going to be making some amazing soaps

I've recently started using this soap as it seems to be nice and solid and you know what? Its the best soap I have used on my hair since I started using shampoo bars over a year ago lol who would have known? I accidentally made a great shampoo bar