Two single oil soaps with/without vinegar

[earlene]

Approximately a year ago, I started an experiment with a couple of single oil soaps, making a 600 gram batch of each with a [40% lye] concentration and Zero SF. There had been some discussion on the forum about comparing soap with vinegar to soap without, so first I made the soap without. 3 days later, I made one batch each with vinegar to obtain approximately 2% Sodium Acetate. Because I master-batch my lye, I had to use a lower lye concentration (31-32%) because this just made measuring easier.

The vinegar soaps were colored to differentiate them from the plain soaps. No fragrances were included in either soaps. EDTA was the only other additive, other than ROE, which I always add to the bottle when I first open it.

I did this with single oil soaps because I had never done a single oil hemp soap, and the single oil RBO soap I had done 2 years earlier, my notes were lacking and my conclusions about the soap was lost. So I wanted information about my impressions of 1. these particular single oil soaps, and 2. what if any differences would I observe with the addition of the SA via vinegar.

My photos of the vinegar soaps were either never taken (I suspect) or lost somehow. So I will have to take photos and post the vinegar soaps. I do have photos of the non-vinegar soaps when they were 3 days old.

Here is the first post I made about these soaps on the day I made them:

I made a 600 gram batch of 100% Hemp Oil soap and documented the process. It is now in the oven for CPOP. Next up is 100% Rice Bran Oil soap. I did RBO single oil soap 2 years ago, but my notes on it were so sketchy that I just don't know what the result was other than how it behaved in the beginning. Performance over time notes are glaringly absent for the RBO soap. This time I will be more diligent with my documentation for all the oils I test.

Next quote is from the next day:

Unmolded both my test batches: 100% hemp oil soap and 100% RBO soap. I thought they were gelling because they got & stayed warmer than the pre-heated oven for several hours, but it looks like partial gel. I will return them to the oven to encourage full gel. I should have realized they needed more than the usual heat since I used a [40% Lye Concentration] and both oils & Lye at room temperature (76° F).

I may cut the Rice Bran Oil soap before returning it to the oven because it is so hard and I am curious.

So far, and as expected: The Hemp oil soap is quite a bit softer than the RBO soap, at least by half or more. I expected the hemp oil soap to have a greener hue, but it is refined hemp oil, so I guess that was just wishful thinking. Both are a pretty pale beige color.

Next I plan to repeat the experiment with each oil with added vinegar and see what difference in hardness I get with the hemp oil. I'm fine with the hardness of the RBO without the vinegar, but will look at that as well.

The next quote is from when the soap is 3 days old:

Yesterday I trimmed two of my test soap bars to see how they hold up on day two after being made: 100% hemp oil; 100% Rice Bran oil. Both were still a bit soft, although full gel helped harden them enough to plane & bevel while handling with care. Fingernail marks in the Hemp bar are hard to avoid with my long nails, so I'll probably trim my nails before I trim anymore bars. They grow so darn fast; it seems I am always having to trim them in order to handle soap without marking them up!

Also am in the process of mixing vinegar lye solution for the test soaps I was going to do a couple of days ago. Want to get them done today so at least the non-vinegar and the vinegar ones will have been both made in July (3 days apart, but that's okay.)

Reference for the vinegar:NaOH calcuations.

In my next post I will add more intormation on this experiment.

 

[earlene]

The RBO soap is colored with a pale yellow mica. The Hemp Oil soap is colored with a pale green mica. This is so they are easy to differentiate one soap from the other.

placeholder for photos of vinegar soaps (to be added later)
Here is a photo of the 100% Hemp Oil + vinegar soap.

This is the 100% RBO - vinegar soap:

Quote the day after making the vinegar soaps (Aug 1, 2017):

Today I cut my two vinegar-for-SA single oil soaps: Hemp 2% S.A. and RBO 2% S.A. Happily they both fully gelled this time, but I also soaped a little warmer because I made the lye solution fresh (I even went out shopping to give the second one time to cool down before soaping) and heated the oven a little more; plus I used a lower [Lye Concentration] than the non-vinegar version.

I could have cut the RBO vinegar soap sooner, but at least I didn't wait too long. I waited until both soaps dropped to 82°F before removing them from the oven, then let them sit for a short time before cutting.

Quote of my first testing (Aug. 3, 2017):

I tested one of the 100% Hemp Oil soaps; too early really, they need a cure first, but I noticed that when I sprayed the alcohol on the surface and rubbed it with my finger, that the surface started getting really mushy. So I rinsed it off to try and smooth it out; it got more mushy. No wonder the kids of that guy who made Hemp Oil soap loved playing in the bathtub with it. It turns to mush really fast and I can really see kid having fun with that. But it sure tell me that this oil won't be used in high percentages in my soap. Also I won't be wanting to get this one very wet before it reaches a decent cure. Still it's part of the testing process, so copious notes are in order.

More ongoing testing quote:

Aug. 3, 2017
In my ongoing evaluation of 2 single oil soaps, in the early stages, I have this to say:

RBO with 2% Sodium Acetate at [31.3% Lye Concentration] is best planed and beveled on day 3. On day 3, it seems to be in just the right condition for smooth planing and beveling.

Hemp Oil with 2% SA at [32% Lye Concentration] is still soft on top (an interesting phenomena it has in common with non-vinegar Hemp sister) so it's still not ready for a smooth drag-free planing.

The softness on the top (pouring) surface of pure Hemp Oil soap is interesting. It is as though gravity had some effect on the saponification process, or rather the drying out process, since there is no zap and has not been since day #1 (counting the made on date as day #0.) In spite of the softness on top, I still cut the bars on Day #1, being careful not to dent the surfaces.

Yes, to those asking, I will compile a report in a separate thread, but am not yet ready to do so.

I had started a draft of a thread, but never posted it and it got lost along the way.

Next quote is from Dec. 4, 2017 in which I said:

Experientially, I can tell you that 100% hemp oil soap turned DOSy very fast for me, so I would not even suggest making soap with a high percentage of hemp, and I even added the ROE and EDTA, and it still happened.

But I am not sure that was true. I thought it was DOS, but later as time wore on, it seems less like DOS and more like something else, but I don't know what, so I'll have to describe it.

The outer surfaces of the 100% Hemp Oil soap developed a uniform darker color, which washes off, or can be planed off and the underlying soap remains the original color without a DOSy odor.

Here is how the 100% Hemp Oil Soaps look when left unwrapped for 11 months:

But as I said, that surface layer of discoloration washes or plains off, and the underlying soap has no spots of discoloration. Therefore, I am unconvinced that it is DOS.

The soap that looks brown, on the left in the above photo is the green colored Hemp oil soap with vinegar added. The soap on the right in the photo above is the non-vinegar non-colored Hemp oil soap.

 

[earlene]

So, the question is, did the SA from the reaction of vinegar with NaOH create a better soap? How does it feel to me? Was or is it harder than the soap without added vinegar? Another question is what qualities of this single oils soap do I like and want to carry into a mixed oil soap?

Hemp Oil soap testing:

I have used the hemp oil soap + vinegar for hand washing until today, when I decided to test it out in the shower. At 11 months old, the 100% hemp oil soap still forms a gooey surface gel when it is wet. I doubt it would last long with daily use. It was also harder to rinse off than most of my soaps, and I even double checked with Hubby about how long it's been since he added salt to the water softener or if it had just gone through the cycle, but it hadn't, so it's the soap itself and not the softener.

BUT, it makes extremely large bubbles, given the chance. I'd be willing to bet that I could create huge bubbles with a bubble wand if I took the gel-like substance and made it into a liquid. The bubbles in the shower between both of my arms spanned a width of at least 2 feet on more than one occasion.

However, as an unscented soap, it does have a distinctly sea-like odor. The whole time I was showering, I was reminded of my past adventures harvesting seaweed on the West Coast. Not an unpleasant smell to a girl who spent a lot of time at the ocean, but probably not an odor most would expect with their bath soap. I didn't notice it as strongly when hand-washing, but I spend more time in the shower.

As to how my skin reacts to the soap throughout the day, there is no drying of the skin, and it feels smooth and comfortable. It doesn't feel as well 'nourished' as after I use some of my other soaps, but I am only noticing that because I am paying close attention. But my feet are not dry and my legs are not dry, so there is no 'stripping' of the natural oils that I am noticing.

N.B. I have yet to actually compare the plain Hemp to the vinegar-added Hemp soap. I shall have to come back to report on the differences, if any in regards to any differences in how they perform or feel.


Rice Bran Oil Soap testing:

I have been using both the vinegar-added RBO soap and the plain 100% RBO soap as hand washing soap at sink-side for several months now and really like the feel. Both are quite bubbly and lather up quite a lot. But the vinegar-added RBO actually creates a slime-like cable similar to the one people don't like in a Castile soap. The plain RBO soap WITHOUT vinegar does NOT. This is at 11 months cure. Truthfully, I didn't really notice the snot-strings until this morning when I looked for them. Non-vinegar added RBO lathers thicker and is a nicer lather. Bubbles for both are small, but fast to appear in hand washing.

Regarding the SA making a harder soap, well maybe so, but initially for cutting early it might matter, but over time after a good cure (which I always prefer) it appears to make no noticeable difference to me.

As to how my skin reacts to the non-vinegar-added RBO vs the vinegar-added RBO, I would say, there is a slight difference in how my skin feels after washing with each. I seem to prefer the plain RBO soap (without the SA that was the result of vinegar).

N.B. I have yet to test out either 100%RBO soap in bathing.


I'll have to come back to this with an edit after further testing.

 

[earlene]

I didn't get back in time to do further edits. This morning I used the Plain Hemp soap in the shower to compare it to the Hemp with Sodium Acetate (via vinegar reaction with lye) that I used a couple of days ago. The report on that soap is in the above post.

Hemp Oil soap testing continued:

One thing I forgot to mention is that the 100% Hemp oil soap feels quite waxy when it is dry. Both the plain hemp and the hemp with SA (via vinegar reacting with lye) are really quite hard (I know this is a subjective hardness) while dry. Not so hard I can't put a fingernail mark into it when my hand slips while handling it, though.

But as I mentioned, when wet, it just absorbs the water and forms a jelly-like substance on the surface. This is true of both versions, with and without the SA.

As for the bubbles and lather of the hemp soaps:

Both the plain hemp & the hemp with SA produce copious bubbles, which I think would thrill children and teens in the bath. No need for a bubble bath additive with this soap!
However, the Hemp with SA produces bigger and longer lasting, hardier bubbles than the plain Hemp. In the shower, the huge bubbles of the Hemp + vinegar soap can expand in size to about 1 - 1.5 feet before they pop. The plain Hemp bubbles didn't expand as much in size and popped sooner.
Also the lather itself seemed to be thicker and much creamier with the Plain Hemp rather than with the Hemp + vinegar soap.

Skin feel after washing with Hemp Oil soaps:

Handwashing: My hands looked and felt a bit more shiny than usual with the hemp oil soap + vinegar today, although I did not experience that a couple of days ago. I am not sure why, perhaps over-washing, sort of like 'out damn spot' or OCD type of hand-washing. I did not have that same feel with the Plain Hemp soap.

Showering: After showering with the Plain Hemp soap, the skin of my lower legs (which tend to feel dry before any other of my skin does) seem a little drier than normal. I can see a bit of surface dryness on my shins. I did not notice that with the hemp oil soap + vinegar the other day. So generally my skin feels like it would benefit from lotion, which I almost NEVER use since I began making my own soap.

Conclusions about Hemp Oil as a single oil soap:

For kids and folks who love a bubble bath, this would be a perfect bath bar, as long as they don't expect it to last long. Depending on how long the bar stays in the bath water, the soap may not last longer than a week or two, as long as it is removed, wiped off and allowed to dry in between uses.

For handwashing and showering: loads and loads of bubbles and lather.
Skin lotion might be necessary, depending on the user's skin condition or type.
(Face: I don't use soap on my face, so no evaluation on that front.)

Other uses for this soap:
Perhaps this would be useful for felting purposes, but it may leave behind a lot of soap that would need rinsing out. I may try that some time.
It would NOT be good to be inside a felted soap because it would stay wet between uses far too long and would turn to jelly in short order.
Bubble wands: I think this soap has potential for use as a bubble wand soap, IMO, the hemp oil soap + vinegar soap would be the better of the two for making a liquid to use for bubble wands because the bubbles seemed to be stronger and larger and longer lasting. If I do experiment, I'll try it with both and come report back in the future. No guarantees, though. But it might be a fun experiment.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

RBO Soap testing in the shower will come later, as I haven't tried them yet except for handwashing.

 

[earlene]

RBO soap in the shower results:

Both soaps were made with 100% Rice Bran oil, meaning, no other oils were used. The Plain RBO soap had no added color and other than EDTA & ROE, no other additives. The RBO soap with 2% S.A. via the use of vinegar in place of some of the water was colored yellow, therefore I may call it Yellow RBO soap. It also contained EDTA & ROE. Neither was fragranced. Both were made the end of July in 2017, so were just under a year old at the time of testing.

Yellow RBO soap with vinegar testing in the shower:

Barely any bubbles! I worked hard trying to get bubbles, and this soap just doesn't want to make bubbles. Tiny bubbles formed with vigorous effort, but barely last a few seconds. But it is mild soap, with no irritation of my lady parts. Lather was not as thick, but sufficient to try shaving my legs, which I rarely do with a soap that doesn't contain lanolin, but with gingerly care, I managed to shave without making my legs bleed. It doesn't feel as good for shaving as my lanolin-containing soaps, though. After the shower, my skin felt smooth and not dry. No visible dryness on legs, arms or hands. I wonder if the vinegar/SA inhibits bubbles?


Plain RBO soap testing in the shower:

Bubbles were small, but easier to form and slightly more plentiful. Still not long lasting. A bit more lather than the other. Other than better bubbles and lather, the rest of the results were the same, except I did not shave again. Skin soft and felt sufficiently nourished afterward.

Conclusion: 100% Rice Bran Oil does not benefit in the long run by using vinegar to create Sodium Acetate in teh soap. The benefit of un-molding sooner is outweighed by the loss of bubbles.

 

[Chispa]

Good post Earlene! It is good to see someone else's opinion on RBO soap. I've made many soaps with a majority of RBO, since it is one of the cheapest oils in my grocery ($9 for 3L). Like you, I find that it performs best when messed with the least. Here is the conclusions I've arrived at for my experiments:

5% superfat in all soaps

1. 92% RBO, 5% Castor, 3% lanolin and 2% salt and sugar, makes a hard white bar which is nice to use after a two month cure. After 8 months the bar is one of my top rated soaps. The lather comes off the bar like a thick cream with hardly any bubbles, but if you add a splash of water to the cream, it explodes into lovely fine bubbles. The bar does not feel particularly hard once broken in, but it does not wear away very fast either. It does not get bendy when thin, just wears down to a firm sliver
2. 80% RBO, 5% Castor, 15% coconut oil (no salt) makes a softer initial bar. The uncoloured soap is a bit yellow. You can dent it between your fingers up until 4 months. After that it is an unremarkable bar, it lathers fine, will melt away quickly if not stored dry. For that reason I can't leave this bar in the kid's shower, since they are horrible soap abusers, and the bar barely lasts a fortnight. Gets soft and bendy when the bar is thin.
3. Adding 2% salt to the previous recipe makes an initially harder bar, which is a little bit more durable.
4. Adding a whole egg to the 15% CO and salt recipe makes the bar wear even faster. Lather not remarkable.
5. 95% RBO, 5% Castor, 2% salt and sugar (1 egg white in 500g oils) makes a bar much like the first recipe. The lather is very nice, but the bar wears a bit faster. Hint of eggy smell.

Looking at recipes 2,3, and 4 you might think I'm a slow learner for making so many bad soaps, but I made them all in the space of a few weeks, trying out different variables. My notes are all at 9-12 months of cure time.

I will next make a big batch of 95% RBO, 5% castor for general shower use. That is the proportion of oils that has worked best for me, and I can't wait to get it curing. The difference between the CO bearing and the >90% RBO bars is enormous. The higher RBO is way way better. I was a bit hesitant to omit the salt and sugar, but seeing your report makes me more confident to do so. The salt stung my wife's legs when she shaved.

 

[beckster51]

RBO is my favorite oil for soap, although I have not made a pure RBO bar. All of my favorite skin-loving bars contain RBO. I am going to try a >90% RBO bar with a bit of castor and canola oil. I love those big bubbles that canola gives, and I have never had any problem using it in smaller percentages.

 

[Dean]

The difference between the CO bearing and the >90% RBO bars is enormous.

Hi Chris. Would you please clarify?

 

[penelopejane]

Maybe you should try less salt. I use 1-2 tsp per kg oils (you are using about 4 tsp ker kg I think) and you won’t feel it in the soap but it makes a difference to hardness. A lot of salt will cut lather and bubbles.

 

[penelopejane]

Good post Earlene! It is good to see someone else's opinion on RBO soap.

I will next make a big batch of 95% RBO, 5% castor for general shower use. That is the proportion of oils that has worked best for me, and I can't wait to get it curing. The difference between the CO bearing and the >90% RBO bars is enormous. The higher RBO is way way better. I was a bit hesitant to omit the salt and sugar, but seeing your report makes me more confident to do so. The salt stung my wife's legs when she shaved.

Thanks for the great feedback.

Maybe you should try less salt. I use 1-2 tsp per kg oils (you are using about 4 tsp ker kg I think) and you won’t feel it in the soap but it makes a difference to hardness. A lot of salt will cut lather and bubbles.