Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?

[KiwiMoose]

Waited too long to cut I think. The 'rind' will disappear over time and it will be uniform in colour. Also see my recent thread; "Grr - Spotty Soap" where I talk about oat milk and rice water.

 

[TheGecko]

¿Is there a maximum temp for mils before they scorch? I kept an eye on it and the highest temp it got while soaping was 117 F.

I really want to know more about what happens to lye when it gets colder, do you happen to have the reference to that post you mention? I've been having a lot of soda ash in my lye water lately and want to reaserch a bit.

I've only ever used Goat Milk (evaporated, store bought, fresh from the goat)...I don't know about 'milk' derived from grains or nuts. But I did have a batch of Goat Milk Soap that overheated...and it was bad. And not just bad, but really, really gross. It turned a dark tan, massive oil separation and it SMELLED. I followed recommendations to let it set to see if the oil would be absorbed back in...it did. But then when I went to cut the bars...the oozed oil and then you got hit with the smell.

That "soda ash" in your Lye Solution is more commonly known as "lye lint"; "soda ash" is what appears on the surface of your soap. "Lye lint" comes from the Sodium Hydroxide reacting to the carbon dioxide in the air and turning into Sodium Carbonate. Not a huge deal if you have some 'floaties'...you can stain them out or just blend them in. But you don't want to have a lot of "lye lint" because you will have less Sodium Hydroxide in your solution and it can impact the quality of your soap. It's NOT dangerous, it just means you will have a higher Super Fat. It's always best once your Lye Solution cools down to cover it tightly until you are ready to use it.

When your Lye Solution falls below 65F/18C it will start to precipitate out (become solid) and you'll end up with lye crystals in your soap.

There is no rhyme or reason to soda ash...sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. I've made a single batch of soap that I poured into two molds and one got soda ash and the other didn't. I've had just a light dusting and I've had it so thick that I had to toss the soap out.

Forgot to ask again... would you use this soap or toss? Do you think it's safe?

Unless it's zapping you, I would.

Hello everyone! I'm here with more confusion I cut the bar I made yesterday and seems to have the same problem, so here I go...

I'm going to recommend that until your figure out what may be causing your problems that you start making 'test' batches...I have a 4" Square Silicone Mold that I use.

Start with your base recipe...35% Lye Concentration (with Distilled Water), usual SuperFat (if applicable), oils/LS at 110F...nothing else; this is your 'control' soap. Then make a batch (same temperatures) and add your with your 1% Citric Acid; compare with your Control. Then make a batch (same temperatures) with your 1% Citric Acid and your Rice Milk; compare with your Control and Citric Acid batches.

When my garage drops below 65F, I let my soaps sit in the kitchen for at least an hour before I cut; I just cover with a light dishtowel.

 

[penelopejane]

I think you should make 1lb batches until you perfect the recipe.
Soap warmer 107*F for lye and batter. Doesn’t have to be thick trace to pour.
By leaving on the bench uncovered you’ve got partial gel. To avoid this cover and wrap the soap in towels and leave for 18 hrs. Do not peek. This should make a warm cocoon for it to gel and will prevent soar ash and the rind that has formed.
How are you making your oat milk?
Have you adjusted your NaOH for the addition of 1% CItric acid?
AC is activated charcoal I don’t see any in the bars. Did you use the recipe water to mix this?
Why have you added zinc? I don’t see two layers.
Cracking when cutting means it was left too long. I’d try 32% lye concentration and follow the above.

 

[cascarral]

Hello everyone!

I'm trying the oatmeal bars (pale yellow) I made a couple of weeks ago and the edges that looked a bit whiter are stingy. They don't burn a lot but if I leave my tongue for a while I can definetly feel something that doesn't feel in the rest of the bar. Im guessing they are lye heavy due to separation... but I can't wrap my head around it! The trace was thick enough, I soaped at 100 F and did everything right! Any ideas?

The other soaps I made (the orange ones that had EOs) feel perfectly fine on the tong, no stinging! But they still have those white spots... Should I toss them? No idea what they could be.

I will definitely make a test batch and go from there...

About the AC I meant CA, "citric acid" ha! sorry about that

 

[AliOop]

Stinging is not a sign of being lye heavy, especially since the sensation wasn't immediate.

A lye-heavy soap will give you an immediate zap - an electrical shock - that will make you jump.

You can read more here about how to do a proper zap test. Meanwhile, your soap should be just fine and safe to use. If in doubt, let it cure a little longer.

 

[cmzaha]

If you leave your tongue on any soap it can sting. As Ali mentioned above Zap is immediate like touching your tongue to a 9-volt battery and hard to miss. I would venture to guess those white spots are not lye-heavy spots.

 

[cascarral]

I'm just seeing this comments, thank you so much for your answers!

I took your advice @TheGecko and started with the testing in 1000 gr batches.

First one (control, just the oils from my recipe - OO: 60% CO: 25% Cocoa: 15%, lye concentration 33%. And no additives) went well. I soaped at 100 F and took to a medium trace (first picture).

For the second test I added Sodium Citrate to the oils and it came out weird again! It looks like some alien brain on the top and then the inside is weird and separated. The lighter parts have a different density than the darker ones, you can feel the texture.

I had been using Citric Acid in the batches that went wrong but this time I used Sodium Citrate...

The method was: melted coco and coconut at 188 F, let it cool down to 158, then mixed the OO and came down to 93 so I reheated a bit. When it was 131 F I added the Sodium Citrate (at 1% and diluted in double it's weight of water), blended it in with the hand mixer and then mixed with the lye that was 120 F. The temperature of the mixture was 122 F. Blended it to medium/thick trace and poured to the mold. I covered it with a wood lid and left in my workshop wich was 64 F. Unmolded and cut 20 hours after.

Here are some pictures so you can see the trace I used and soap texture:

First two are from Soap 1 and last 3 are from Soap 2

 

[TheGecko]

I had been using Citric Acid in the batches that went wrong but this time I used Sodium Citrate...

So now you know that Sodium Citrate causes problems, but it doesn't solve your other problems. And a 1000 grams for a "test" batch is still an awful lot soap ingredients to waste. My test batches are 20 oz total batch weight (567g)...4-5oz bars (142g) are plenty.

 

[AliOop]

Neither sodium citrate nor citric acid are causing your issues. Those wrinkly tops mean that overheating is your problem. You are soaping very warm, and blending to what I consider thick trace. That's fine if it's your preference to do either or both of those things, but you need to adjust something else to avoid the overheating. Since wood molds already provide a lot of insulation, I recommend not putting on the wood cover, not insulating with towels, etc.

As for the look of the inside, you have what is known as "glycerin rivers." Those are cosmetic only, and happen more often when using a lower lye concentration (i.e., more water), especially when soaping warmer. Again, it's fine if you prefer to soap warmer, but if you want to reduce or eliminate the glycerin rivers, you will need to reduce your water. You didn't mention what lye concentration you use.

To avoid glycerin rivers when soaping warm and CP, I'd recommend selecting "lye concentration" (not "water as percent of oils") and starting at 35%. Then blend only to a light trace instead of the heavy trace you are showing in the pictures, and cover it with a light piece of cardboard or plastic wrap, not the heavy wood cover. I think that will eliminate your wrinkly tops and your glycerin rivers. Of course, if you are willing to soap cooler, like 100F or so, that will help greatly, as well.

 

[cascarral]

Neither sodium citrate nor citric acid are causing your issues. Those wrinkly tops mean that overheating is your problem. You are soaping very warm, and blending to what I consider thick trace. That's fine if it's your preference to do either or both of those things, but you need to adjust something else to avoid the overheating. Since wood molds already provide a lot of insulation, I recommend not putting on the wood cover, not insulating with towels, etc.

As for the look of the inside, you have what is known as "glycerin rivers." Those are cosmetic only, and happen more often when using a lower lye concentration (i.e., more water), especially when soaping warmer. Again, it's fine if you prefer to soap warmer, but if you want to reduce or eliminate the glycerin rivers, you will need to reduce your water. You didn't mention what lye concentration you use.

To avoid glycerin rivers when soaping warm and CP, I'd recommend selecting "lye concentration" (not "water as percent of oils") and starting at 35%. Then blend only to a light trace instead of the heavy trace you are showing in the pictures, and cover it with a light piece of cardboard or plastic wrap, not the heavy wood cover. I think that will eliminate your wrinkly tops and your glycerin rivers. Of course, if you are willing to soap cooler, like 100F or so, that will help greatly, as well.

I'm soaping with 33% lye concentration, I'll try 35 thank you

When my problems started I was soaping around 70-80 F, the soaps I've had problems with are oatmeal and rice, both heat up a lot so I soap colder. I started using higher temps and working u my batter to thicker trace trying to solve the issues I was having. I'm still not sure what was happening but it looked like separation.

 

[cascarral]

So now you know that Sodium Citrate causes problems, but it doesn't solve your other problems. And a 1000 grams for a "test" batch is still an awful lot soap ingredients to waste. My test batches are 20 oz total batch weight (567g)...4-5oz bars (142g) are plenty.

Does sodium citrate heat soap batter? I'll make smaller batches thanks!

 

[AliOop]

I'm soaping with 33% lye concentration, I'll try 35 thank you

When my problems started I was soaping around 70-80 F, the soaps I've had problems with are oatmeal and rice, both heat up a lot so I soap colder. I started using higher temps and working u my batter to thicker trace trying to solve the issues I was having. I'm still not sure what was happening but it looked like separation.

Thanks for the additional info. I still don't think the SC is the problem as it has never created any additional heat for me. OTOH, your wooden mold with wooden top is a terrific insulator that will hold in all the heat from gelling. Try elevating the mold on some soup cans or something similar, and set a fan to blow on it. That may keep it cool enough to eliminate the alien brains you are getting. Good luck!

 

[cascarral]

Thanks for the additional info. I still don't think the SC is the problem as it has never created any additional heat for me. OTOH, your wooden mold with wooden top is a terrific insulator that will hold in all the heat from gelling. Try elevating the mold on some soup cans or something similar, and set a fan to blow on it. That may keep it cool enough to eliminate the alien brains you are getting. Good luck!

I will do that, thank you very much. So probably I over did it with the heating in my attempt to solve the other issues But still trying to understand what's happening with my Oat and rice soaps... Do you have any insights? Here's a link to the pictures from my lasts 2, at this point both look like separation to me:
1. Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?

2. Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?

 

[cascarral]

Waited too long to cut I think. The 'rind' will disappear over time and it will be uniform in colour. Also see my recent thread; "Grr - Spotty Soap" where I talk about oat milk and rice water.

Hi I’m wondering if you’ve noticed anything else in your oat/rice soaps. I’ve kept making the rest of my soaps with no issue! But all this troubles keep happening as soon as I incorporate oats or rice… I’m thinking its a combination of 1. My high in cocoa butter recipe 2. The starch 3. The fact that I use colder temperatures for this two soaps.

 

[cascarral]

Hi everyone!

After my lasts trys I’m having trouble deciding how to proceed…

There are ao many issues! My bars have overheating and underheating problems, somehow…

The oatmeal ones have had glicerine rivers (meant to be a problem linked to too much heat) and at the same time A LOT of soda ash (linked to low temps). I had problems with my bars that were made with low temperatures but then when I tryed soaping warmer got the same troubles or a bit different.

The issues with my rice soap could be eighther fragrance spots from over heating or stearic spots from soaping cold…

How can I move forward?

I want to make a test batch of the oatmeal soap but soaping warmer resulted in the same issues and I dont know what to change now…

 

[AliOop]

Since ash is only cosmetic, and can be removed by steaming, I wouldn't worry about it and would focus first on eliminating the overheating.

Meanwhile, you can also reduce ash by lowering your water, aka raising your lye concentration, and covering the soap immediately after pouring. This also helps prevent glycerin rivers, which usually has more to do with too much water, rather than too much heat. I gel my soaps on a heating pad and rarely get glycerin rivers because my water is low (aka lye concentration is high).

 

[cascarral]

Since ash is only cosmetic, and can be removed by steaming, I wouldn't worry about it and would focus first on eliminating the overheating.

Meanwhile, you can also reduce ash by lowering your water, aka raising your lye concentration, and covering the soap immediately after pouring. This also helps prevent glycerin rivers, which usually has more to do with too much water, rather than too much heat. I gel my soaps on a heating pad and rarely get glycerin rivers because my water is low (aka lye concentration is high).

Thank you! But wont the water discount rise the temperatures?

 

[cascarral]

Since ash is only cosmetic, and can be removed by steaming, I wouldn't worry about it and would focus first on eliminating the overheating.

Meanwhile, you can also reduce ash by lowering your water, aka raising your lye concentration, and covering the soap immediately after pouring. This also helps prevent glycerin rivers, which usually has more to do with too much water, rather than too much heat. I gel my soaps on a heating pad and rarely get glycerin rivers because my water is low (aka lye concentration is high).

I got soda ash on this one that has 35% lye concentration:
Post in thread 'Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?'
Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?
I’m just assuming the white edges are that based on this post: Explaining and Preventing Soda Ash - Soap Queen

But maybe I’m wrong

 

[penelopejane]

Avoiding soda ash can be prevented in some environments by raising the Lye concentration.
But someone just down the street from you might not find this effective.
You really have to work out a system that works for your soaping and soap storage environment.
I did it by soaping at 31-32% lye concentration. Putting my silicone molds in a close fitting cardboard box, wrapping the molds in a woolen blanket and putting them in an oven preheated to 40*C (110* F) then turned OFF when I put the soap in the oven and then leaving it untouched for 18 hours.

When I got new molds that wouldn't fit in my oven I had to work out a new system which works for summer or winter. Now I use a wooden box that supports the silicone mold and a wooden lid. This goes into a polystyrene box with a lid and I put a doona over the top and leave them for 11-18 hours. Then I cut the soap and put the cut bars in a plastic box for 24 hours. This gives the bars air but not too much. I find this prevents ash for me.

I soap at 40*C (110* F) for every soap I make. I soap in a cool room that can get lower than 10*C (50*F) in winter but no higher than 70*C in summer. It has no window so no sun gets in or even land on the outside wall.

Everyone has a different environment that they make and store soap in. Try a few things with small batches until you find a solution for you.

Putting plastic over the top of the mold while the soap cures will work too if you don't have a lid for your molds.