Trying to solve this enigma... do you have any thoughts?

[cascarral]

I've been having problems with one of my soaps. It's a rice milk soap with pachuli and lemongrass EOs. I'vee been using the same eo blend for 6 years and making this exact same soap for the past 2. It has always been a tricky one because the scent + milk combo can get very warm, however my last and second to last batches have developed the same problem and I've had to discard them.

This one is my best seller so I really need to solve the problem and make a new batch soon! My batches are 10 pounds so I'd like to get to the bottom of this before wasting 10 pounds of ingredients for the third time

The first time it happened I noticed small harder bits of soap as I was pouring, they looked like undissolved cocoa butter, though I completely dissolved my oils before mixing. When I unmolded I noticed lye pockets that burned my tongue so I discarded the batch. I figured it was the eo blend since I had used a different supplier so went back to mine and did another batch which went out great.

This week I was making a new batch with the same eos I used last time, everything seemed ok but at the very end, when I was smoothing the top of the poured soap I realized the batter looked a bit grainy. When I unmolded I noticed the same problem again, lye pockets that burned. This time I also realized that the parts of the soap closer to the edges of the mold were lighter in color, when I zap tested them they burned, the soap on the inside did not.

I'm guessing the soap separeted? and the edges are more concentrated in lye than the middles?

I trust completely in this supplier, they import very high quality oils and are super professional. As far as I know lemongrass and pachuli can heat up a bit but are not eos known for their seizing potential. Has anyone had trouble with them?

I'd love to hear your theories about what is happening and how I could avoid it, can't afford to waste more ingredients, but my customers are asking for this soap and I'm out of stock! Please help!

 

[AliOop]

Without knowing your recipe and process (esp how you are adding your milk), we can only make wild guesses. For instance, are you mixing the lye and milk together or separately? Are you straining your lye solution before pouring it into the oils, to catch any lye that hasn't dissolved and to squish any milk-fat that has started to saponify?

Hopefully you will feel comfortable sharing some detailed info so we can trouble-shoot more effectively. Without knowing more, the white spots look like a combo stearic spots and air holes to me, but that dark yellow-ish one on the edge looks like a bit of scorched milk.

I do think you should wait longer and re-test after a couple of days. My soaps are often a bit zappy right out of the mold, but they are fine within a day or two. The inside is going to be hotter and saponify sooner than the edges, too.

 

[cascarral]

Hi Ali! Thanks so much for your answer, it has given me a bit of hope.

I completely forgot to write my recipe, sorry! Here it goes:

OO: 60% CO: 25% Cocoa: 15%, lye concentration 33%.

I used 300 gr of water to make de rice milk, boiled the rice, blended it, strained and added more water to compensate, remaining in 300 gr of rice milk.

Then I dissolved the lye with 1,111 gr of water and added the remaining water with dissolved citric acid (1% oif oil weight) slowly.

Weighted and melted my oils and then had to work for some hours, when I came back they were soild again so I remelted and added my rice milk to them.

Oils were 24 Celcius and lye 20 C when I mixed, at medium trace added the eo blend (2.7% oil weight, 70% lemongrass 30% pachuli), I separated in 3 parts for my design, added annatto infusion to one pot, rhubarb powder to another and left one plain. Worked the batter a little bit more to get a thicker consistence and poured.

It was quite thin when I poured since 10 pounds of soap dont usually thicken than much, but there was definitely a trace.

That's when I noticed the graininess, as I was flattening the top of the soap. I sprayed some alcohol and placed on the fridge.

Cut after 17 hours.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I am finding that I've been having more problems since I've reintroduced cocoa butter into my recipe. It certainly needs to be soaped at a hotter temperature to behave better. Yesterday my oils were at 46 degrees when i added the lye solution. I gelled the soap and it turned out fine.
I have noticed similar to you @cascarral that if it's too cool it can start to resolidify into little lumps while making the soap. I also notice that it doesn't go completely clear when melting with the other hard oils - it stays slightly cloudy. Yesterday I tried to warm it slightly longer (and a bit hotter) to get rid of the cloudiness before adding the liquid oils, but it would not go completely clear.
Are you soaping a bit cooler recently? Perhaps that's the problem?

 

[TheGecko]

Oils were 24 Celcius and lye 20 C when I mixed

I would say that this is your problem (for us heathens that's 74F for your Oils and 68F for your Lye Solution) based on the fact that I tend to soap at lower temps myself. There are a few things going on...1) At 74F your Hard Oils are not fully melted; they may look 'clear', but they really aren't. 2) By adding 68F Lye Solution to 74F Oils, you're lowering the temperature of your oils to about 70F-72F further causing your Hard Oils to solidify. 3) @DeeAnna is an expert at exactly what happens to your Lye Solution when it drops below below 70F, but we've been having a lot of unseasonably cold weather here and my MB'd Lye Solution looks like crap...it's at 68F and has a ton of stuff floating around it in...hard particles. I might get away with setting the jug in a sink filled with hot water, but I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing.

With this said...I make Goat Milk Soap and use 100% Goat Milk and never allow the temperature of my GM Lye Solution to get above 70F because I don't want to scorch my GM; in fact, it's usually around 65F when I had it to my oils. The difference however is two-fold: 1) I give my GM Lye Solution a good whiz before I had it to my Oils, and 2) my Oils are around 120F.

 

[cascarral]

I am finding that I've been having more problems since I've reintroduced cocoa butter into my recipe. It certainly needs to be soaped at a hotter temperature to behave better. Yesterday my oils were at 46 degrees when i added the lye solution. I gelled the soap and it turned out fine.
I have noticed similar to you @cascarral that if it's too cool it can start to resolidify into little lumps while making the soap. I also notice that it doesn't go completely clear when melting with the other hard oils - it stays slightly cloudy. Yesterday I tried to warm it slightly longer (and a bit hotter) to get rid of the cloudiness before adding the liquid oils, but it would not go completely clear.
Are you soaping a bit cooler recently? Perhaps that's the problem?

Hi Mmmm it does sound like this could be the issue!! Do you mean 46 Celcius? I soaped at 24 Celcius :O

I would say that this is your problem (for us heathens that's 74F for your Oils and 68F for your Lye Solution) based on the fact that I tend to soap at lower temps myself. There are a few things going on...1) At 74F your Hard Oils are not fully melted; they may look 'clear', but they really aren't. 2) By adding 68F Lye Solution to 74F Oils, you're lowering the temperature of your oils to about 70F-72F further causing your Hard Oils to solidify. 3) @DeeAnna is an expert at exactly what happens to your Lye Solution when it drops below below 70F, but we've been having a lot of unseasonably cold weather here and my MB'd Lye Solution looks like crap...it's at 68F and has a ton of stuff floating around it in...hard particles. I might get away with setting the jug in a sink filled with hot water, but I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing.

With this said...I make Goat Milk Soap and use 100% Goat Milk and never allow the temperature of my GM Lye Solution to get above 70F because I don't want to scorch my GM; in fact, it's usually around 65F when I had it to my oils. The difference however is two-fold: 1) I give my GM Lye Solution a good whiz before I had it to my Oils, and 2) my Oils are around 120F.

Wow thanks for all this information! I will certainly soap at warmer temps. Is there a reason you heat your oils to 120 F?

We've been having really cold weather too! I'm sure it's been messing up with my process.

When you say "I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing." ... which reasons are this? jajaja I'm still not sure of what is happening.... Would you guess there are lye pockets?

Wow thanks for all this information! I will certainly soap at warmer temps. Is there a reason you heat your oils to 120 F?

We've been having really cold weather too! I'm sure it's been messing up with my process.

When you say "I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing." ... which reasons are this? jajaja I'm still not sure of what is happening.... Would you guess there are lye pockets?

These are pictures from the first time it happened, it was way worse than this week's disaster. This bars are from October, I zap tested yesterday and they seem fine... Do you think I can use it? I'm afraid it has unmelted lye inside that can burn when you use the soap.

 

[TheGecko]

Wow thanks for all this information! I will certainly soap at warmer temps. Is there a reason you heat your oils to 120 F?

We've been having really cold weather too! I'm sure it's been messing up with my process.

When you say "I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing." ... which reasons are this? jajaja I'm still not sure of what is happening.... Would you guess there are lye pockets?

A few different reasons. 1) The highest melting point of my oils is 100F and so I like a little wiggle room. 2) When you add your Soft Oils, they are most likely at room temp and thus will lower the temp of your melted oils. Same when you add your room temp Lye Solution. My house is 72F and so adding room temp oils/lye solution will drop my oil temp to about 100F. 3) I tend to multi-task. So while my oils are melting, I'm weighing out my Lye Solution, adding Sodium Lactate. I'm weighing out my FO and mixing in Kaolin Clay. If I'm using colorants other than Micas or doing more than one color, I'm getting those prepared. I make make another cup of coffee or take a bathroom break or even sit down for a moment because I'm not a spring chicken any more. And while I'm doing all of this, the oils have melted and are starting to cool back down. Again...wiggle room.

I'm in the Pacific Northwest of the US and winter always affects my soap making. We get a lot of rain starting in January so I change my Lye Concentration from 33% to 35% and I have to cure my soap for another two weeks. On a positive note, I don't have to refrigerate my Goat Milk Soap and my garage turns into a refrigerator.

I have about a half gallon of my current MB'd Lye Solution left from early October. I usually store it inside of my soap cart (aka Rolling Kitchen Island) and it stays around 70F. But I left it sitting out and we've been having some unseasonably cold weather these last couple of months and hubby has the bad habit of turning OFF the heat at night so my Lye Solution has been getting cold and has a bunch of 'floaties'...it has started to precipitate (solid bits of lye). I can of course, strain these out and my soap will probably be okay...maybe a bit softer and take longer to cure, maybe have a little higher SuperFat, but it's less than a half gallon and I simply don't want to hassle with it.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hi Mmmm it does sound like this could be the issue!! Do you mean 46 Celcius? I soaped at 24 Celcius :O


Wow thanks for all this information! I will certainly soap at warmer temps. Is there a reason you heat your oils to 120 F?

We've been having really cold weather too! I'm sure it's been messing up with my process.

When you say "I will most likely just dump it out since I don't consider it safe to use...for the reasons you are experiencing." ... which reasons are this? jajaja I'm still not sure of what is happening.... Would you guess there are lye pockets?


These are pictures from the first time it happened, it was way worse than this week's disaster. This bars are from October, I zap tested yesterday and they seem fine... Do you think I can use it? I'm afraid it has unmelted lye inside that can burn when you use the soap.

Yes - I'm in celsius here. Your bars are similar to mine where I've had the same issues. Naughty cocoa butter! I use Soy wax at 20%, Shea butter at 10% usually and have no issues - but as soon as i add just 5% cocoa butter - I get those 'stearic swirls'. One batch I had them going right through the bar! At first i thought it was just on the surface - like soda ash, but no, I used the bar right up and it went all the way through.

 

[cascarral]

A few different reasons. 1) The highest melting point of my oils is 100F and so I like a little wiggle room. 2) When you add your Soft Oils, they are most likely at room temp and thus will lower the temp of your melted oils. Same when you add your room temp Lye Solution. My house is 72F and so adding room temp oils/lye solution will drop my oil temp to about 100F. 3) I tend to multi-task. So while my oils are melting, I'm weighing out my Lye Solution, adding Sodium Lactate. I'm weighing out my FO and mixing in Kaolin Clay. If I'm using colorants other than Micas or doing more than one color, I'm getting those prepared. I make make another cup of coffee or take a bathroom break or even sit down for a moment because I'm not a spring chicken any more. And while I'm doing all of this, the oils have melted and are starting to cool back down. Again...wiggle room.

I'm in the Pacific Northwest of the US and winter always affects my soap making. We get a lot of rain starting in January so I change my Lye Concentration from 33% to 35% and I have to cure my soap for another two weeks. On a positive note, I don't have to refrigerate my Goat Milk Soap and my garage turns into a refrigerator.

I have about a half gallon of my current MB'd Lye Solution left from early October. I usually store it inside of my soap cart (aka Rolling Kitchen Island) and it stays around 70F. But I left it sitting out and we've been having some unseasonably cold weather these last couple of months and hubby has the bad habit of turning OFF the heat at night so my Lye Solution has been getting cold and has a bunch of 'floaties'...it has started to precipitate (solid bits of lye). I can of course, strain these out and my soap will probably be okay...maybe a bit softer and take longer to cure, maybe have a little higher SuperFat, but it's less than a half gallon and I simply don't want to hassle with it.

Oooh! I always get floaties in my lye solution! How can I prevent this?

I only have this problem with this particular soap which is the one that I soap at the lowest temp because of the oatmeal and eos so it makes sense that it's the temperature what's affecting me.

At which temperature would you soap my recipe?

Do you think my soap is good to use or would you throw it away? I did strain the lye before adding it to my oils.

 

[WildHareCraftSoap]

This whole conversation is blowing my mind. I’m fairly new to soaping and the fact that there’s so much room for varying temperatures in solutions and the saponification still work is mind boggling. Here I am making lye solution each time I make soap and wait till it cools to approximately 110F and then heat my oils back up to within 10 degrees and mix them. Is 110F hot? We do tend to gel quickly but have made it work. When you master batch lye solution, you just use it room temp? Does the temp disparity between lye and oils not cause problems?

 

[KiwiMoose]

This whole conversation is blowing my mind. I’m fairly new to soaping and the fact that there’s so much room for varying temperatures in solutions and the saponification still work is mind boggling. Here I am making lye solution each time I make soap and wait till it cools to approximately 110F and then heat my oils back up to within 10 degrees and mix them. Is 110F hot? We do tend to gel quickly but have made it work. When you master batch lye solution, you just use it room temp? Does the temp disparity between lye and oils not cause problems?

No it doesn't. That 'rule' is just a guideline for beginners until they get used to making soap and knowing how it behaves. I soap at (your) 100 degrees or just over - and to a lot of people that's quite hot.

 

[WildHareCraftSoap]

No it doesn't. That 'rule' is just a guideline for beginners until they get used to making soap and knowing how it behaves. I soap at (your) 100 degrees or just over - and to a lot of people that's quite hot.

Good to know, thank you!

 

[TheGecko]

At which temperature would you soap my recipe?

100F is a good starting point...that would be the temperature after you mix your oils and lye solution.

I'm not an expert at this...LOTS of trial and error. Mixing temps seems to run about halfway. So my Lye is 70F and my Oils are 120F...50 degree difference. When I combine them, my batter will be around 95F (120 - 25). Hope that makes sense.

 

[TheGecko]

This whole conversation is blowing my mind. I’m fairly new to soaping and the fact that there’s so much room for varying temperatures in solutions and the saponification still work is mind boggling. Here I am making lye solution each time I make soap and wait till it cools to approximately 110F and then heat my oils back up to within 10 degrees and mix them. Is 110F hot? We do tend to gel quickly but have made it work. When you master batch lye solution, you just use it room temp? Does the temp disparity between lye and oils not cause problems?

Oh hon...it's a massive rabbit hole. Alice ain't got nuttin'.

If you've been lurking for awhile, you will have noticed that we ask a LOT of questions because there are a lot of factors that can affect your soap. Even your mood which is why I won't soap if I'm angry...beat that soap to death!

As noted by @KiwiMoose, 110F is a good STARTING POINT for beginners. Not too hot, not too cold...all your oils will be melted properly, you won't get burned (heat) if you accidently splash yourself.

I generally have a 50 degree difference between my Lye Solution and my Oils. I Master Batch (another subject for another day) and so my Lye Solution is already at room temp (about 70F) and I make sure all my oils are properly melted at 120F. Combined, my batter is around 95F and that works for me. Now I have soap at higher and lower temps...it can be tricky...it depends on your batter (Oils/Butters). And your Additives. And your Scent. And your Colorant. And whether you're wearing a clean bra or not.

 

[Misschief]

I usually soap at about 100F. I generally feel the outside of my bowls (lye solution and oil mix); if I can comfortably hold my hand against it, it's cool enough to mix them. That's usually around 100 - 110F.

 

[dmcgee5034]

Oh hon...it's a massive rabbit hole. Alice ain't got nuttin'.

If you've been lurking for awhile, you will have noticed that we ask a LOT of questions because there are a lot of factors that can affect your soap. Even your mood which is why I won't soap if I'm angry...beat that soap to death!

As noted by @KiwiMoose, 110F is a good STARTING POINT for beginners. Not too hot, not too cold...all your oils will be melted properly, you won't get burned (heat) if you accidently splash yourself.

I generally have a 50 degree difference between my Lye Solution and my Oils. I Master Batch (another subject for another day) and so my Lye Solution is already at room temp (about 70F) and I make sure all my oils are properly melted at 120F. Combined, my batter is around 95F and that works for me. Now I have soap at higher and lower temps...it can be tricky...it depends on your batter (Oils/Butters). And your Additives. And your Scent. And your Colorant. And whether you're wearing a clean bra or not.

I always love your posts, @TheGecko, but this one was my favorite! Cracking up over here!

 

[cascarral]

Oh hon...it's a massive rabbit hole. Alice ain't got nuttin'.

If you've been lurking for awhile, you will have noticed that we ask a LOT of questions because there are a lot of factors that can affect your soap. Even your mood which is why I won't soap if I'm angry...beat that soap to death!

As noted by @KiwiMoose, 110F is a good STARTING POINT for beginners. Not too hot, not too cold...all your oils will be melted properly, you won't get burned (heat) if you accidently splash yourself.

I generally have a 50 degree difference between my Lye Solution and my Oils. I Master Batch (another subject for another day) and so my Lye Solution is already at room temp (about 70F) and I make sure all my oils are properly melted at 120F. Combined, my batter is around 95F and that works for me. Now I have soap at higher and lower temps...it can be tricky...it depends on your batter (Oils/Butters). And your Additives. And your Scent. And your Colorant. And whether you're wearing a clean bra or not.

Thanks for your explanation! I just made another batch and soaped around 100 F, got pretty nervous because it was an oatmeal soap and thought it could scorch but it seems fine. It doid bring up a question though, ¿Is there a maximum temp for mils before they scorch? I kept an eye on it and the highest temp it got while soaping was 117 F.

I really want to know more about what happens to lye when it gets colder, do you happen to have the reference to that post you mention? I've been having a lot of soda ash in my lye water lately and want to reaserch a bit.

 

[cascarral]

Forgot to ask again... would you use this soap or toss? Do you think it's safe?

 

[penelopejane]

I wouldn’t sell the soap in your Dec 27 post if it was mine because I want a consistent product for my customers that is perfect as can be. But that is just me. I’d use it for personal use once it’s cured and I’m sure it’s not lye pockets and maybe give it to friends.

I soap at 40*C (105* F) milk soaps and oat milk soaps, summer and winter. I premix my lye but when I add water from the recipe it heats up.

 

[cascarral]

Hello everyone! I'm here with more confusion I cut the bar I made yesterday and seems to have the same problem, so here I go...

Base recipe is the same but with 35% lye concentration with 1% Citric Acid (as percentage of oils), dissolved the AC in water and then when cool added the lye. No eos this time and instead of rice I used 8 tbs of oatmeal for 10 pounds of soap, made a pretty thick milk and added to my warmed oils. Bottom half had 0.5 tsp of zinc ppo.

Strained my lye before adding to oils because it had a light sodium carbonate film on top. My lye mix was 91 F and oils were 100 F when I mixed, then it warmed up to 117 and started to cool down from there. I poured at a pretty thick trace. Left uncovered in my workshop which it's pretty cool right now, at 9 pm it was 60F but probably dropped during the night.

I let it rest for 20 hrs and as soon as I took it to unmold I noticed a pretty thick film on top, like soda ash. 1. The bars have the same spots than my last batch (the ones from the last batch dont burn or zap anymore), 2. I also discover a small pocket with gooey water inside, it didnt burn to the touch. 3. And the edges of the bar are lighter and harder and even though the inside of the bars is quite soft yet, the edges broke a bit with my multi wire cutter.