Trying to narrow down my ricing problem

[Catscankim]

I started soaping about a year ago, as almost a full-time job. I have used most of my FO again and again with the same recipe that I have been using as long.

All criticism is welcome.

Nearly every FO I add to soap -and stir- is ricing. I swear that all I have to do is breathe on it wrong and it starts ricing up. Most of my batches are blended to emulsion with the sb then everything is stirred after. For like 6 months when I first really started making soap, I didn't know what ricing even looked like...now I am battling it every single batch.

I soap cool. Since I add sugar to my water, I add a little lye at a time to my water/sugar mixture and I stick it in the freezer. I do this maybe three or four times to keep the sugar water from scorching and changing color to too dark. This goes over about a half an hour. In the meantime, I melt my lard and coconut oil in the microwave, two minutes tops It is still kinda congealed (lard) and I stir until it is liquid, then add my olive oil and castor oil. Both lye containers and oil containers are comfortably warm to the touch. I do not take the temp (although now that I am trying to find the problem I should start doing that).

Three or four bursts with the blender, mostly stirring after. I have literally just stirred a lot because I don't want air bubbles LOL. It is quite thin when I start working with it.

Color first....I stir (when I pull the stick blender out, I never put it back in...avoiding bubbles)

I mix dispersed colors in all of my containers. (SB is actually in the sudsy sink by now...zero blending). Everything is the way I want it.

One drop of FO goes in....done.

I'm in Florida, so I get the humidity might be a factor...but I started soaping here and it's never been a problem before. Plus my thermostat is set on morgue. Always 68 degrees while I am home. Windows/doors never open to extra humidity in the house.

There has to be a variable here somewhere. i just can't figure it out. I'm gonna start taking the temp of the oils/lye. I never did before, but at least I can have a standard. I was blaming the fo, but it is happening with fragrances that I have used over and over.

Its a 50% lard bar...25% olive, 20% coconut, 5% castor. 33% lye concentration. 2T sugar, cold distilled water.

 

[Babyshoes]

How bizarre. Different brand of anything, perhaps?

 

[Tara_H]

How certain are you that it's ricing and not false trace? I only ask because it sounds like you're soaping super cold.

 

[lsg]

With that much lard, you could be seeing false trace. Have you read the reviews for the FOs that you are using? The reviews will usually state if they cause trouble, such as ricing.

 

[TheGecko]

I'm in Florida, so I get the humidity might be a factor...but I started soaping here and it's never been a problem before.

So what changed? Go back to your notes from when you first started soaping and compare them to when the 'ricing' started? Things to look for:

Change in ingredients, including additives.
Change in the amount of your ingredients, including additives.
Change in suppliers.
Change in room temperature.
Change in temperature of oils and lye.
Change in temperature of your FOs.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you're soaping TOO cool. You're barely melting your oils, then you're adding below 70F Lye Solution from the freezer, dropping the temp even further. And if your house is below 70F, I bet your FOs are cold too.

I make soap with fresh goat milk...I freeze my GM, then put it in an ice bath with salt. I let the bowl sit for 5 to 10 minutes getting cold before I start to add my lye. I keep an eye on the temp as I'm mixing...I like it around 70F-75F. Over 75F and the milk will start to scorch, below 70F and it will damage the Lye. In between adding more Lye, I weigh out my Master Batched Oils/Butters and pop them in the microwave...I heat the mixture in 30 to 60 second bursts depending on weight, stirring in-between to about 110F-120F. Because I store my FOs in the garage or on a shelf in the open, I check the temp of it too. If it's below 70F, I'll pop it in a bowl of hot water.

Whether it's GM Lye Solution or Ready-to-Use...I don't just dump it in my Oils/Butter...I pour it like I'm adding Evap Milk to my Pumpkin Pie and I stir it in so I end up with a beginning batter that's around 90F-100F. I do the same with my FO...pour and stir. Sure...this all takes time, but the extra time is cheaper than ruined soap.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I'm just going to reiterate what the others have said. Have you read the reviews for the FO's and does your FO suppliers do there own testing of their FO's in soap?

I used to buy any FO that said that it was OK for soap but I ran into way too many problems that could have been avoided if there was testing by the seller and reviews to read. I experienced the ricing, overheating and discoloring. I would go back and check your FO's first.

Also having a good IR thermometer around is a good practice. I know some people don't use a thermometer but I always do because it's better to be safe than sorry. You can get a good one online for $20 - $50 just depends on how accurate you want it to be.

 

[amd]

Since I add sugar to my water, I add a little lye at a time to my water/sugar mixture and I stick it in the freezer.

What if instead of adding the sugar direct to your lye water you make a simple syrup mixture and add that to your oils instead? That would eliminate the scorch factor and fuss from your lye solution. I've only used sugar in my lye solution once, although I do add honey to some of my soaps on a regular basis (see notes further below). When I add my honey, it is warm and added to the oils (stickblended together) before adding my lye solution. A good soap calc will help you recalculate the water needed for lye solution based on how much simple syrup you're adding. I factor the honey into my lye solution liquid this way.

I melt my lard and coconut oil in the microwave, two minutes tops It is still kinda congealed (lard) and I stir until it is liquid, then add my olive oil and castor oil.

Both lye containers and oil containers are comfortably warm to the touch.

I don't think this is soaping too cool. If both containers are warm to the touch, you're probably running around 80degs. I soap by feel when it comes to temps, because honestly, the degs just don't mean anything to me other than just being numbers. The clarity of my oils, how hot my lye solution container feels, those are tangible things to me. Last weekend when I soaped, we had warm weather so my boiler (that heats my house and where I keep my masterbatched oils) wasn't running as often, so my oils were cooler and cloudy, but no chunks so I used it. My soap mixing went fine even when using lye solution made the day before, so I really don't think it's your temps.

One drop of FO goes in....done.

Do you know what happens if you add your FO to the oils before adding the lye solution rather than after separating for colors? Does it still rice?

ts a 50% lard bar...25% olive, 20% coconut, 5% castor. 33% lye concentration. 2T sugar, cold distilled water.

What size is your batch? If you're doing 1lb or 2lb oils, the amount of sugar (too much?) you're using may be a culprit. I have used sugar in my lye solution once, for a pine tar soap. Off the top of my head for a 2lb batch I used 2 teaspoons of sugar (1 tsp/ppo), and I did have ricing, but I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that that was because of the pine tar, not anything else in the recipe. I'm not really sure what the recommended amount of sugar is, but I feel it's a less is more situation, and unless you're making a huge batch, 2 TBSP maybe too much. Perhaps the combination of oversugared soap batter with the fragrance components is causing a breakdown of the soap? This is totally an unscientific statement/question and just my own musing based on my limited knowledge of how ricing works and how sugars heat soap faster....

Did you change oil suppliers recently?
What happens if you change to a lower lye concentration (more water)?
If the fragrances previously didn't rice, I'm inclined to think it is something in your oils.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m sorry you’re having the ricing issue. I’m sure it’s frustrating. I have made a few batches of a recipe that is very close to yours with 1 TBS of sugar for 500 g of oils (so close to 1 TBS/ppo) and with everything at approx. 75 F. It was part of my “extreme soaping” tests of low temperature soaping. I didn’t experience any problems when using the lard recipe, even with an accelerating FO. Here’s what I did differently based the methods you gave. I used a 40% lye concentration (quite different, but I can’t think of a reason that adding more water would cause ricing), I melted the lard and coconut oils to 140F before I added the liquid oils, I added sodium citrate to the cool lye water and I added the sugar to the oils as a simple syrup. My simple syrup is 50:50 sugar and distilled water. For 1 TBS of sugar in a recipe, I use 25 g of simple syrup because a tablespoon of sugar weighs approx.12.5 grams. I subtract the 12.5 grams of water in the simple syrup from the liquid amount I’m adding to the lye. That way I end up with the correct lye concentration in the end. If I’m remembering correctly without my notes handy, the fats were a bit sludgy at first and I definitely remember that they were not clear. After I added the lye water I sb’d for a few pulses until the temp started to rise and then let the batter sit for a minute or two to warm up a bit more. At that point the consistency was thin and I proceeded as usual.

 

[Obsidian]

Are you FOs getting old? Are they in plastic bottles that get warm?
I've had old FO act up before, especially ones that are stored in plastic bottles. I always figured there is some kind of chemical change going on due the the plastic.
Now I keep most my plastic bottles in the fridge or transfer to glass bottles.

 

[cerelife]

I don't think too much sugar is the problem since I use more than anyone has mentioned.
I put my distilled water/aloe vera juice in my lye pitcher and add my sugar, sodium lactate, and tussah silk. I mix well until all the sugar has dissolved and THEN I add my lye and give it a quick stir. While I'm measuring my oils and heating my hard oils I stop every 5 minutes or so and give the lye water another stir to help the silk dissolve. I've been doing this for years and never had any issues.
For my hard oils - I want them clear/not cloudy but I don't overheat them either. When they're clear, I add my soft oils so that brings the temp down as well. By this time, my lye is clear (but with a yellowish tint from the aloe and sugar) and everything is usually around 90 degrees which seems to be my sweet spot. I'm not a stickler for temps, but I do check them to keep the lye and the oils within 10 degrees of each other when I combine them. BTW, that yellowish lye doesn't affect the color of your soap at all!
I wouldn't worry so much about getting air bubbles from your SB. Just give it a few good burps and it'll be fine I SB my FO into my oils before adding the lye unless it's a discoloring one and I want swirls or some design.
I don't disperse my micas in oil before adding them to my batter, so I need to SB those as well to get them evenly blended. If you use TD, that pretty much has to be SB'd in - or that's been my experience, anyway.
I don't know. Maybe like others have said it's false trace? I'm kind of wondering if maybe hand stirring your colorants into the batter could be causing the problem if they aren't blended well?

 

[Catscankim]

I am going to start with taking temps again. Getting ready to make a batch, so I will update you all.

I can make a batch without even looking at the actual printed recipe...that's how familiar i am with it. I do look at it, just so I am sure of the weights etc, but in actuality, I don't have to. But maybe somewhere I got sloppy with the temps or some other factor.

So with all other factors being constant, I am going to just (give in) and start taking temperatures again.

And yes, I do look at the reviews and specs on the FO's. Mainly because I don't want a discoloring FO, but while I am there I look at acceleration factors as well. It doesn't usually stop me from buying a fragrance: I just need to know what to expect. And I always check again just before soaping.

And again, I am in Florida. So humidity is disgusting. I would think the AC being on would negate that, but sometimes I walk out on the back porch to smoke, so maybe that is the problem. I dunno.

I am managing to fly by with the ricing, but I don't always get what I was looking for in designs.

I have never seen false trace (actually don't know what I would be looking for tbh), but since the beginning, I always put the coconut oil and lard in the same container and zapped for 2 minutes. Lard melts last, so I just stir until it incorporates. It is quite hot and I cool it down with the other liquid oils and still have to let it sit a bit before soaping, but will know more definite answers with taking the temps lol

 

[Catscankim]

Hopefully, mystery solved...

Although my thermometer broke...I can still take a temp with my hand lol, and I have soaped my last few batches warmer than I normally do/did.

It is working a lot better with soaping warmer for me. Maybe it is a seasonal thing for me, I dunno. I haven't had ricing in the last three batches (thankfully).

What I have been doing...I still melt my oils the same way: 2 min in the microwave and then add my soft oils. The lye....I stopped putting in the freezer to cool down. Basically, just letting everything cool down naturally and soaping a little warmer than usual has fixed it. Still not sure which part of it actually fixed it (not putting the lye solution in the freezer vs soaping warmer), but it is working LOL.

I'm leaning towards the lye solution in the freezer, but that will be an experiment for another day LOL.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Hopefully, mystery solved...

Although my thermometer broke...I can still take a temp with my hand lol, and I have soaped my last few batches warmer than I normally do/did.

It is working a lot better with soaping warmer for me. Maybe it is a seasonal thing for me, I dunno. I haven't had ricing in the last three batches (thankfully).

What I have been doing...I still melt my oils the same way: 2 min in the microwave and then add my soft oils. The lye....I stopped putting in the freezer to cool down. Basically, just letting everything cool down naturally and soaping a little warmer than usual has fixed it. Still not sure which part of it actually fixed it (not putting the lye solution in the freezer vs soaping warmer), but it is working LOL.

I'm leaning towards the lye solution in the freezer, but that will be an experiment for another day LOL.

Glad you figured it out. soap can be so damn fickle, what worked today may not tomorrow. Us soapers are truly a breed apart from other's w/ the determination to keep going despite the occasional setbacks just buy the littlest change. lol lol

 

[Jersey Girl]

I use mostly hard oils (like 80%) so I soap between 100 and 110 with my lye solution being closer to 100. Below 100 and my oils start getting too cloudy. I only had an issue with ricing with a FO that I later learned was prone to it. As far as acceleration... I’ve learned which FOs move fast, so I do too! . I put my FO in a warm water bath as well as my TD and I always have a quart container of hot water that I dip my SB into before I start mixing.
If I’m doing a challenge or a design that requires a fluid batter for an extended time I use a separate recipe that is very slow moving.
I just saw this thread and the first thing that came to my mind was you were soaping too cool for your recipe.

 

[TheGecko]

Because I Master Batch both my Oils and Lye Solution...my Oils are between Pancake Batter and Cornbread Batter depending on the time of year and my Lye Solution is around 70F-80F (room temp). When I re-melt my oils...rule of thumb is between 15 to 20 seconds per pounds or between 110F to 120F. Partly because I want to make sure all my hard oils are properly melted, partly because I know that my Lye Solution is going to drop the over all temperature of my batter some 20 degrees and I don't want my hard oils to start solidifying again.