Trace too thick I couldn't even pour....why?

[Menny]

Hi everyone,
It's just happend to me 5 minutes ago and I need your help!
The foto of the recipe attached.
In short, I mixed the oils with lye water ( in this case I used beer as water, with half tsp salt and half tsp sugar ) and as light trace arrived I add musk fragrance oil in the amount of 4 % of oils weight which is around 9 gr.
I decrease superfat to 2 % (usualy I superfat 5-6 so I decrease the 4 % of the fragrance oil ).
As soon as I pour the fragrance oil it took 5 seconds to the trace to became thick. So thick I couldn't even manage to pour it to the silicone mould.
The degree of the oils and lye at mixing time was 48. Then as I barely poured it the temperture rose to 58.
Can I save that batch?
What might be the reason for that case?
Looking forward to hear from you as fast as possible, Thanks, Menny.

 

[steffamarie]

My guess is that your fragrance oil caused what we normally refer to as seizing. It's a pretty good indicator that it was caused by your FO since it happened as soon as you added it. It's probably going to be fine soap, as long as it doesn't zap, but it will look quite...rustic lol.

Also, the sugars in beer and in the extra sugar can make things hot. That probably didn't help the issue.

 

[Dawni]

I'd make soap balls out of that if it's still soft enough, and you can say that was the plan all along lol

Make sure you're wearing gloves....

 

[amd]

1st: there is already sugar in the beer, so I wouldn't add additional sugar.

I decrease superfat to 2 % (usualy I superfat 5-6 so I decrease the 4 % of the fragrance oil ).

2nd: decreasing FO amount does not change your superfat. The calculator already did that for you in the lye calculation.

Liquid amount used is slightly low. For beer soap I like to use around 28% concentration because it does heat up, which speeds up saponification.

Overall though, I suspect that the FO adds acceleration, go back to the supplier, there should be supplier notes and/or reviews that will indicate if this FO accelerates. If it does, the beer and the extra sugar didn't do this one any favors.

Also, this is a very very small batch at 242g total weight. I would suggest 500g to minimize the risk of a measuring error.

 

[JanelleTrebuna]

I have a couple of floral fragrance oils that accelerate like that.
I've learned to have everything ready and just whisk them into my batter before pouring.
In my experience, using a stick blender causes them to seize.

 

[jcandleattic]

Probably a combo of the beer and scent. I have learned to work with the beer I use (I don't boil/simmer out the alcohol - I just freeze and go) but it does thicken up a bit.

 

[Menny]

Thank you all.
Ok so next time no sugar.

Liquid amount used is slightly low. For beer soap I like to use around 28% concentration because it does heat up, which speeds up saponification.

Ok, I just ran it at calculator so next time 37 % liquid.

I have a couple of floral fragrance oils that accelerate like that.
I've learned to have everything ready and just whisk them into my batter before pouring.

That just what I did but....in 5 seconds it became as thick as I've never expect it to become
So, what should I do next time? When should I add the fragrance? It definitely is an accelerator...but there must be a way to add it...

2nd: decreasing FO amount does not change your superfat. The calculator already did that for you in the lye calculation.

But I didn't enter that fragrance into the calculator ....
Generaly, if I add fragrance oil, I need to increase the lye amount in accordance, am I right?

 

[jcandleattic]

Generaly, if I add fragrance oil, I need to increase the lye amount in accordance, am I right?

No, that is incorrect. Fragrance oil is not an oil persay, as it is not a base oil and will not affect your lye amount at all.
If you add additional lye to compensate for this ingredient, you run the risk of having a lye heavy soap. As @amd pointed out, the amount of FO does not change superfat, meaning you will not have a lye discount due to adding any amount of FO.

 

[penelopejane]

Is that FO from a soap making supplier?
If not I wouldn’t use it in soap.
If it is I wouldn’t use it in soap either because it makes life too hard!

 

[Menny]

Is that FO from a soap making supplier?
If not I wouldn’t use it in soap.
If it is I wouldn’t use it in soap either because it makes life too hard!

Yes It is, a big supplier in my country. Is there any other way to give a good smell to soap without fragrance? I'de be glad to know. As far as I've tried, an organic Cinnamon gives a gentle to soap.

I was just thinking about a possible solution, let me know what you think.
Say I pour the oils into the mould at light trace, and then pour the fragrance into the moulded oils, and give it a fast mix by hand with a small tea spoon or any other tiny tool (but not stick blender). Those it make any common sense to you?

 

[steffamarie]

To soap with such an accelerating FO, I would hot process the soap. I doubt you'll be able to find much of a way to make it work in CP. With HP, you'd add it at the end, after the cook, and it would have little to no effect on the thickness of the soap. It will still look pretty rustic, but it should help you not have to do a panicked rush to get it in the mold.

 

[Obsidian]

For a picky FO like that. You want to get your soap to the absolute lightest trace possible then hand stir in the fo and get it into the mold as fast as possible.
If it still accelerates, wrap the bowl in a towel and wait until the batter goes into full hot gel, mix again and mold.
Seized soap will usually gel within 15 minutes if wrapped up well.

 

[Menny]

For a picky FO like that. You want to get your soap to the absolute lightest trace possible then hand stir in the fo and get it into the mold as fast as possible.
If it still accelerates, wrap the bowl in a towel and wait until the batter goes into full hot gel, mix again and mold.
Seized soap will usually gel within 15 minutes if wrapped up well.

True! That just happend here in my case. As it became hot and a bit Jelly I just tighten it with my finger ( wrap with glove of course) . Hope it'll process well in the next hours

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Just a note, even if this particular FO is not suitable for soap (because it accelerates crazy fast) other FO’s from your supplier might work. I buy small quantities (15 mils) that are just about enough to try. If they work, i buy again, if they dont, i buy others. Trial and error.
What i learned is what Obsidian told you, light trace, stirr by hand the FO and pour. Not enough time? Then let it gell and mold after. You wont get pretty swirls but you’ll get nice smelling soap.

I know the struggle when you dont have FO that behaves well on soap, I’m with you haha.

 

[Menny]

Just a note, even if this particular FO is not suitable for soap (because it accelerates crazy fast) other FO’s from your supplier might work. I buy small quantities (15 mils) that are just about enough to try. If they work, i buy again, if they dont, i buy others. Trial and error.
What i learned is what Obsidian told you, light trace, stirr by hand the FO and pour. Not enough time? Then let it gell and mold after. You wont get pretty swirls but you’ll get nice smelling soap.

I know the struggle when you dont have FO that behaves well on soap, I’m with you haha.

Yes thats what I'm gonna do. What is the percent of FO that you use for an X grams of oils? Maybe I used more then I should? I used 4% of the weight of the oils.

 

[earlene]

Yes thats what I'm gonna do. What is the percent of FO that you use for an X grams of oils? Maybe I used more then I should? I used 4% of the weight of the oils.

With each particular fragrance, you need to check what the vendor says is safe for use in soap. Some will say a very low percentage, and some will say a very large percentage. Don't go above the highest safe percentage. But if it says you can use up to 97%, don't do that, because obviously the soap wouldn't ever set up (too much liquid) and it would be a waste of money. In that case 4% is fine. Some soapers here use 6% as long as it is in a safe range. But it also depends on the fragrance. Some are very strong and overpowering, while others are rather weak.

 

[jcandleattic]

Yes thats what I'm gonna do. What is the percent of FO that you use for an X grams of oils? Maybe I used more then I should? I used 4% of the weight of the oils.

Depending on the scent I use anywhere between 3-6%, so your 4% shouldn't have been too much. Some FO's are just accelerators, and it sounds like this is one of them.

 

[Andrew]

The myrrh I use seizes just like this as well. The method I have developed is to mix the myrrh in with the oils, add the lye solution and stir until it is all mixed at 100˚ F. At that point, at the lightest of trace or before, pour it into the molds. It finishes tracing and solidifies in the molds as I am scraping out the pot. I don't like gelling and I don't like hot process so developing this process has made a real nice cold process bar with no seizing issues.

 

[Menny]

Update.
The soap turn out quite crunchy, made of lots of crumbs... some small some big but crunbs. Not look like a soap at all .
Anyways, just did another batch recipe attached. I raised the water percentage to 35% of oils. I dropped the Musk FO to 1.5 % and poured in a very light trace. Gave it a quick stir and poured it into the mould. When I poured it into the mould it was quite liquidy but as far as it was allready moulded it was quite thicker. 10 minutes later I notice that in the middle it was soft (foto attached) what's the reason?
I hope it'll process well. Will update you.

 

[shunt2011]

It’s gelling. It should be fine.