Trace time questions

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

So I have both a blessing and a burden I guess. No matter what recipe I use, they get to a thick trace in less than 45 seconds. This time I was using a recipe with more hard oils and by the time I got it emulsified with a few pulses with the stick blender, then hand mixed in the colors and FO, it was so thick, like as thick as mashed potatoes that glob to the masher, still smooth and everything, didn't rice, etc, just so gosh darn thick! I had to spoon it in the mold, then I pounded it down quite a bit, but there is still a few spots I can see on the sides that didn't go together (air bubble). Haven't cut it yet, just peeled the side on the mold down to see.
I had 3 hard oils this time, last time I only used one hard oil, and it gets really thick really fast. What am I doing wrong/right? Lol.
It's impossible for me to do swirls with this little issue, because they are un-pourable!
Also, I soaped at 126 degrees with this recipe, they lye water and oils were exactly the same temp when I poured the lye water in.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Is it because I soap with a water to lye ratio of 2:1 (28%) (dumb blonde moment LOL)
With my high olive oil one I did last I used the water at 30% and it still got pretty thick pretty fast for being mostly liquid oils.

 

[IrishLass]

It may be possible that things got too hot. When I soap with a lot of hard oils, I can soap them just fine (i.e., the batter stays nice and fluid for me to make nice swirls before pouring) with the oils as hot as 125F-130F and the lye just barely warm to the touch, about 100F. What oils/fats did you use? And also, how much water?


IrishLass

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

I used palm, coconut, castor, avocado, and shea butter in this one. 29oz of oil total, and 8oz water. Last batch I did I used olive oil, sunflower oil and coconut oil with 29oz total oil, and 8oz water. (weight measurements). Should I try more water next time?

 

[IrishLass]

Woops, we must have been posting at the same time.

I have 2 questions (just to make sure of something):

1) Which lye calculator are you using?

and

2) If you are using SoapCalc, are you using the "water as % of oils" box to calculate the water amount, or the lye concentration box?


IrishLass

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Soap Calc, using the water as % of oils. I did this one at 8% superfat, it probably came out to 9% though, after getting all the color in there (color was mixed with oil)

 

[IrishLass]

Ahha! My hunch was right- that explains everything. To explain, there are two totally different ways to calculate water on Soapcalc, and it looks like you mistakenly entered your 28% in the wrong box. If you had entered it in the 'lye concentration' box instead, you would have had ample enough water for your batch to give you a nice, smooth soaping session, but since you entered it into the "water as % of oils" box, your water amount was way too low, which caused things to move much faster.

By typing the 28% in the 'water as % of oils' box, you inadvertently gave your batch around a 38% to 40% lye concentration, which is something more like 1 part lye to 1.6 parts water, a fairly steep water discount.

Whatever you do, you don't want to get those two boxes confused with each other. Next time, I would type your 28% into the 'lye concentration' box instead.

IrishLass

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

That's what it is?! Oh my gosh, I had no idea LOL. This is I think the 9th batch of soap I've ever made, so forgive my lack of knowledge So what's the difference exactly, between the two? This is the recipe I made up today

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Here is what it looks like with lye concentration at 28%

 

[IrishLass]

So what's the difference exactly, between the two?

One method calculates the water amount based on the oils, and the other method (the 'lye concentration' box) calculates the water based on lye amount. The two are highly different from each other in their calculations and not interchangeable, as you can see from your SoapCalc print-outs, which show that there is almost a 2 oz. difference in water amount between the two.

When one calculates their water amount based on the lye amount, it is straightforward and consistent across the board no matter what type of formula you are making. For example, the lye:water ratio in a 1 lb. batch of 100% Coconut oil with 33% lye concentration will have the same lye:water ratio (i.e., lye concentration) even if making a 4 lb. batch of 100% OO with a 33% lye concentration. But the same is not so if one bases their water amount on the oils. Here is a comparison example between two different 1 lb. formulas using SoapCalc:

1 lb. 100% CO @ 5% superfat
16 oz. oil
2.79 oz. lye
6.08 oz. water (amount based on using 38% water as per oils)
Lye concentration strength: 31.4% (1 part lye to about 2.23 parts water)

1 lb. 100% OO @ 5% superfat
16 oz. oil
2.06 oz. lye
6.08 oz. water (amount based on using 38% water as per oils)
Lye concentration strength: 25.3% (1 part lye to about 3.1 parts water, which is actually considered by many to be a little more than a 'full-water' amount).

See how the 100% OO soap has a higher water to lye ratio than the CO formula even though both formulas use the same 38% water as per oils? What this difference means is that even if one always uses a constant of 38% water as per oils in all their different formulas across the board, they'll begin to notice that certain batches always seem to trace faster while others seem to take forever and a day to trace. No wonder many seem to have trouble getting their Castile's to trace, while other formulas trace in a more timely manner! lol

However, if one were to use the lye concentration box instead, and type in, say, 33% (or some other %) for both recipes, the tracing time results would be more evenly matched (at least they are for me).

Here is a great PDF that helps to explain things (especially pages 2 and 3):

http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

The second one is a keeper!

The difference you ask? Well, I could explain, but I won't cuz it will take quite a bit of hand waving to get the nuances across.

The bottom line is you picked the best way from a chemist's point of view -- using lye solution concentration. Ignore the "water as % of oils" bit and stick with lye concentration.

Here are some general thoughts I have about the different lye concentrations. I'm sure others will have thoughts to contribute too....

Below about 27% lye concentration -- Not recommended for solid (NaOH) bar soaps. Used for cream soaps and liquid soaps.

27-29% lye concentration -- Good for bar soap recipes with a lot of hard fats -- they saponify easily and more water will give you more time to work. Good for doing doing fancy work and making complicated designs. The batter can sometimes separate in the mold if it's not mixed properly (mostly a beginner problem). It may be harder to keep the soap cool enough in the mold so it does not gel, assuming you want to prevent gel. The soap can be softer at the time of unmolding. May see more crackling and mottling in the finished soap (an esthetic issue -- it will still be good soap). May see more shrinkage and greater weight loss during cure.

30-31% lye concentration -- Ditto the above. May be less likely to separate in the mold (again, more of a new soaper problem). A given recipe may come to trace faster, all other things being equal. Less likely to go into gel, if you want to prevent gel.

32-33% lye concentration -- Some recipes may trace quickly enough it will be hard to do fancy work. Good for recipes with a lot of liquid oils (castile is an example) that need a jump start to start saponifying. Fine for recipes with hard fats, especially if the design is simple. Soap will be harder and ready to unmold sooner. May not gel as easily. Will be less likely to develop crackling and mottling as with higher-water recipes. Will see less shrinkage and weight loss as the soap cures.

34% and higher lye concentration -- Ditto the above, only more so. Soap can be made with lye concentrations up to 50%, but I think most recipes are made with lye solutions at 40% or less, and the vast majority are 33% or lower.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Thank you guys SO so much!!! I'm going to try it again tomorrow, using the 2nd one! I will report back with how it behaves I'm really disappointed in the other two, I couldn't beat it down enough, so there are ugly air pockets on the sides, ick! Oh well, the family is the only ones using it, so I guess air pockets is fine, it's for washing bodies anyway LOL.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Ugly doesn't mean unusable. I have a large stack of ugly soap for around here...but I'd avoid giving mine as gifts. People might run screaming.

So, yeah, you can use those and appreciate the quality (high) and scent (if any) while ignoring the aesthetic issues.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Lol, I still haven't cut mine yet, I'm preparing myself for the ugly that could potentially be throughout it! My OCD just can't handle this, and this is my first kinda but not really "botched" batch! ROFL! I might run screaming, I already want to just seeing this! It has a lovely scent though, smells awesome

 

[shunt2011]

Just consider it part of the learning curve. I think it looks nice though. Pretty colors. Just tell your family you meant to do that. We all have soaps we only let family use in the beginning. Heck I still get the occasional batch that's not worthy of sharing with anyone outside immediate family.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Here's how the turned out. They were still really soft when I cut them, so the blue has some color streaks. The pink one has those little white specks from a few clumps of titanium dioxide that wouldn't disperse.
Pics would help, LOL

 

[janzo]

Wow, I can only dream of making soaps that pretty. Well done, brilliant job.

 

[Susie]

^What janzo said!

Gorgeous soaps!

It is probably a good thing to cut a bit soft if you think there are air bubbles. That way you can sort of "help" seal those spaces with gloved hands from the bottom side, then some strategic planing once they are all the way hard should help the bottom become flat again, with no one the wiser but us. And we won't tell.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Thanks everyone they still smell pretty good, so I'm ok with them. I just finished making another batch with more water and it didn't get like mashed potatoes! I made a melon on and it smells great, poured really well so hopefully there is a nice swirl in there. I will probably wait a few days to cut it, it seems to stay soft longer than my other soaps. I got the green in it a little too dark, hopefully it'll lighten up with time.

 

[Little-Bits-N-Pieces]

Well here's the melon one, it smells like juicy fruit! Should have used a little more white to add more swirl, but I'm happy with it, and no air pockets!