Trace and swirls - problem

[renata]

Hello everyone!

I have a problem and I hope you experienced soapers can help me out.
My usual soap recipe is (approximately):
20% coconut oil
35% palm oil
30% olive oil
10% rapeseed or sunflower oil
5% castor oil
with 5% superfat

I really like this recipe - it makes great hard soap, bubbles are great, it is creamy...

The problem is that I reach trace really really fast. I use stick blender and I mix lye solution and oils at room temperature.
Within 2 minutes I get pudding like consistency and I can't do those lovely swirls.
But if I only mix few seconds I'm afraid that lye solution and oils will not be mixed ok.

What could be the problem? What is the recipe for those lovely swirls you make?

Thank you all so much!

 

[Stakie]

Do you add and EO or FO to it?

 

[dagmar88]

Upping the olive oil might give you a little more time. You could try 25% palm and 40 % olive.
You could also cool your lye solution in an ice bath, au bain marie.

 

[renata]

Stakie I add FO just before I pour the soap into molds - after trace. And all FOs I used so far were listed as 'do not accelerate trace'. So i think that should not be the problem.

Dagmar88, I will try with the reduction of palm oil. I was afraid that castor oil is the trouble maker. I really don't want to reduce that creaminess

So would it be better if lye solution was cold? I must confess that I don't use thermometer. It is just too expensive here.

 

[dagmar88]

Oh, me neither. I do have a thermometer, but it's too much of a hassle for me.
The colder the soap batter, the slower it moves.

You can add your FO's to your oils before the lye. Even thought they're not listed as trouble makers, they can react differently on your specific recipe, temps, additives etc.

I often use 8% castor without any problem.

 

[paillo]

Try using a wire whisk instead of your stick blender. I almost always add clay to my recipes, and that tends to bring it to trace a little fast. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I used my stick blender except with straight lavender EO. Whisk like you would a can of paint - bringing the batter up from the bottom. Works like a charm for me.

I agree with Dagmar on upping the olive oil too. Your castor shouldn't be a problem.

 

[shunt2011]

I also add my fragrances to the oils before the lye mixture. I mix at room temperature and just until the batter goes from clear to cloudy emulsified. I would also up the olive oil. I've used Castor up to 10% with no problems with quick trace.

 

[judymoody]

Are you taking a water discount? If so, it will cause the soap to come to trace more quickly.

Nothing in your recipe looks particularly fast-tracing. Unless you are using pomace olive oil perhaps? Pomace moves faster than regular grade A or EV olive oil.

You can also use the SB to pulse and stir, alternating. I start dividing my soap to color when it gets to emulsion but before a true trace. It will be uniform in consistency and opaque but more like half and half than gravy, if that makes sense.

 

[MKRainville]

I have found that I had a similar problem, I just upped the OO to 40 and I still get a very hard, creamy bar. I use castor at 5% also and it is great! I will never go back to a bar with out the castor, it makes a noticeable difference for me.

I usually soap mine just above room temp (both the lye solution and the oils)

Let us know what you think if you do decide to up it, I want to know if it helped you or not. Your recipe sounds like a nice bar!

 

[DeeAnna]

Some folks on another forum were having lots of trouble with fast-tracing recipes and the following technique was really helpful to them. I really want to try this method with a recipe of mine, but haven't had time to make soap lately.

Here's my outline of this method:

Get your oils measured out, but keep the solid fats separate from the liquid oils. Make your lye solution and add it, hot, to just the solid, unmelted fats. Mix the batter a bit by hand, break up big chunks of the solid fats, and give the hot lye solution a little time to melt most or all of the fats. Finish by blending with a stick blender to a medium trace consistency.

Note: Not everyone is comfortable adding a "smokin' hot" lye solution to room temp solid fats (aka thermal transfer method). I think you could, as an alternative, do the more common method of gently melting the solid fats and adding a cooled lye solution. The essential point is to add the lye solution only to the solid fats.

Next add the liquid oils and stick blend to emulsify. (Hint -- if you're using the thermal transfer method and the lye didn't melt the hard fats enough, you can warm the liquid oils before adding them to the batter to help melt the solid fats completely.) The soap batter will thin out when the liquid oils are added, so you'll go back to a "just emulsified" or "light trace" stage. The saponification slows down enough so you'll have more time to do your decorative techniques.

The soapers who had tried this method were enthusiastic about the results, but also said it took a little practice -- maybe 2-3 batches -- to get the hang of the method. One gal said she had to slow down -- she was so used to working really fast to stay ahead of her fast-tracing recipe. She finally realized this method worked even better for her if she just relaxed and worked at a normal pace.

 

[kazmi]

DeeAnna, so you stick blend the hot lye into the solids to medium trace then add the liquids? The liquids will reduce the trace back to light trace? I'd be interested in learning more about this since I use a similar recipe to Renata's. I soap at room temp and have found that hand stirring more than using my SB works for me. I hand stir first to be sure I have everything mixed in good then pulse the SB for barely a half a minute and I'm already at light trace. I don't use the SB more than that unless I have a FO that reverses trace. My recipes with higher OO take longer to trace too.

 

[renata]

Thank you all so much for your answers! I'll definitely try your advices in practice.

I'll add FO to the oils before lye solution and I'll try to work with even colder lye solution.
I'll definitely reduce palm oil and raise oilive oil up to 40%. It will also reduce costs which is a great thing.

Well my first batch was made with wire whisk and I didn't reach any trace at all...it changed color from clear to cloudy but that was it. And the final product was fine but I'm not sure that lye solution was incorporated well. The consistency was uneven if you know what I mean.
I'll make a compromise, i think it will be great: I'll use stick blender just to reach cloudy color and then I'll finish it with wire wisk. That will also give me some more control.

DeeAnna I read about that technique too. It is some kind of alternative to cold process and it is called 'room temperature process': http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/how-to-make-soap-roomtemp.html#.UijUUj_A824

I'm not sure aboout that...i think that the mix would be too hot. But I want to try it, i do. This method is so tempting since I hate waiting for lye solutions to cool down.

 

[Jakeedin]

DeeAnna. I like the sound of you thermal transfer method. I am gonna give a try. Can you advise whether I should treat beeswax as a solid? Also, If I wanted to do water discount say 50% would this method work too?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...DeeAnna, so you stick blend the hot lye into the solids to medium trace then add the liquids? The liquids will reduce the trace back to light trace?..."

Yes to both questions. The room temperature liquid oils ensure the batter is reasonably cool. Adding them after mixing the solid fats and the lye solution will reduce the viscosity (thickness) of the batter. According to the gals who had tried it, it really does slow down the overall thickening process to give people enough time to do fancy swirls and all that. I haven't (yet) tried it, but I intend to.

"...Can you advise whether I should treat beeswax as a solid? Also, If I wanted to do water discount say 50% would this method work too?..."

Yes, beeswax is most definitely a solid fat. I'm not sure the "thermal transfer method" will work well with beeswax, because beeswax melts at a much higher temperature than most other soaping fats -- about 150 to 160 degrees F (65-70 C). My lye solution only gets to about 180 deg F (82 C) at its hottest, so I don't think there is enough energy in the lye solution to warm the solid fats enough to melt the beeswax. I would melt the beeswax and other solid fats in a double boiler or microwave. And if you're trying this method for the first time, maybe you might want to consider using a recipe with no beeswax until you get used to the technique.

Maybe someone else can chime in with more info about this, however, since I haven't tried beeswax in my soaps.

I would use the lye and water amounts you normally use for your soap recipes. They should work fine.

Edit: And I agree with using a stick blender with a light hand, especially if you want to delay trace. I think a lot of us tend to use the blender too much and too long (me included!!!)

 

[newbie]

Yes, I agree that using a SB, but just giving the batter a few pulses to get things going, then whisking is a good idea. My usual recipe is close to your original recipe and you can do some complicated things with it but only with the right FO's and going to emulsion before you start separating and coloring.

I also use a higher OO recipe if I want to take my time, but I've also gotten caught short by not stirring enough then, because I'm used to my other recipe and then it separates in the mold, which makes me want to tear my hair out. Then you're stuck rebatching and I only use that higher OO recipe for pretty colorful stuff= gross brown or gray when you mix it together to rebatch.

All I can say is don't always believe the no acceleration reviews. Some people are using recipes that take a while to trace so they may not notice acceleration that would be a problem for your quick-tracing recipe. And some people assess the acceleration when they make a two color soap, which isn't as time consuming as doing a more multi-color soap and so the time needs are different. It would work for doing two colors, but it would accelerate too much to do 5 perhaps. I still get suckered into the no acceleration thing and then curse like mad when my colors all start to thicken and my plan is botched!

 

[kazmi]

I hear ya Newbie! I'm trying to work on a recipe that's half way between my standard fast trace and my 'is it ever gonna trace' recipe. Also, I've gotten very frustrated when I plop in my FO that got great reviews only to see the acceleration starting up before I get it all mixed with the colorant. Although I've had a few come out with nice swirls that I thought were going to look crappy because of the acceleration, I still have to take FO reviews with a grain of salt.

 

[kazmi]

I tried beeswax once and soaped at higher temps than I normally do. I ended up picking out the little hardened pieces of beeswax from my batter because they didn't stay hot enough to stay liquid. Not sure how anyone can make it work. Fortunately I didn't waste a lot of money buying a larger amount of wax and didn't put a lot in my one and only attempt (it took awhile to pick all of the little pieces out LOL).

 

[kazmi]

DeeAnna do you think you're going to give this a try soon? If you do, let me know how it works out for you please.

 

[newbie]

Gah! That no acceleration thing is murder. You can't tell how they are assessing it at all. The only thing I do trust anymore is the yes, it accelerates-type reviews. It's hard to go by reveiws of no A because then you either have to take the risk on doing something that takes more time and having it thicken up on you- so you have to have plan b for your pour- or you have to do all the little testing samples. Times like these I wish I were a bit OCD. Consistently doing little samples is simply not in my DNA although I am trying to remember to do them. And I feel bad a little if I fill in a review and say there was mild acceleration, because for some recipes or techniques, there will appear to be zero.

 

[judymoody]

I tried beeswax once and soaped at higher temps than I normally do. I ended up picking out the little hardened pieces of beeswax from my batter because they didn't stay hot enough to stay liquid. Not sure how anyone can make it work. Fortunately I didn't waste a lot of money buying a larger amount of wax and didn't put a lot in my one and only attempt (it took awhile to pick all of the little pieces out LOL).

I bought a ten pound box of beeswax pastilles from Soapers' Choice when I first started soaping. I gave up on the beeswax after a few batches - it was too fussy. I have about 9.8 pounds of beeswax pastilles in the original box under my bed. I have enough to keep me in solid lotion bars and lip balm for the rest of my life.