Todd Ziegler's VCS

[Kcryss]

Does anyone happen to know if this VCS works in lotion? I assume that it might be a little too strong. Looking at the WSP website for their color stabilizer's the M&P and Lotion versions cost less than half of the price for soap. Is that because it's different or that it isn't as strong?

Wanting to make some lotion today and the request I had yesterday was for vanilla.

TIA if anyone has any thoughts on this dilemma.

Edit - forgot the link: Homemade Vanilla color stabilizer (VCS) summary

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Does anyone happen to know if this VCS works in lotion?

I had some unscented lotion on hand. So I just now added BB's Vanilla Select FO, 4 grams, to 8 oz. lotion. Just as I suspected, it did not affect the color at all -- and Vanilla Select is known for turning soap to a lovely shade of dark brown.

HTH

 

[dibbles]

@Zany_in_CO I have had fragrance turn lotion brown, so I don’t think it’s safe to assume it won’t happen. It also didn’t happen right away.

Sorry @Kcryss that I can’t answer your question about the ZVCS. Maybe @AliOop has tried it or has some information for you.

 

[AliOop]

Hi there,

I've seen comments by folks on other forums that range from "OMG, my bath bombs are brown!" to "Vanillin doesn't affect the color of anything but soap and has never turned my other B&B products brown or even tan."

My personal experience is that some lotions and other B&B bath products have turned tan (never brown) when using some fragrances that contain vanillin. Others were not affected, even with the same FO. I never thought to try VCS in them (homemade or otherwise) because I wasn't sure if it would be skin-safe in a leave-on product. If they make a version for lotions, that says to me that there is some need out there to prevent the color change that some folks do experience with some FOs.

Another guess would be that the reaction is perhaps ingredient-dependent. Perhaps some B&B products don't contain ingredients that react with vanillin to turn brown, while others do?

@Kcryss if you are able to share, it would be interesting to see the ingredient list for the lotion version, and the usage rate. That would help you know if a) you can use the existing ZVCS formula, or b) whether you can dupe/adapt the lotion formula to make that yourself.

I don't know that Todd Ziegler is active here anymore (his name didn't come up when I tried typing it), but maybe he is and will see this and respond. He was the brainiac behind and formulator of ZVCS.

 

[Annabella]

Does anyone happen to know if this VCS works in lotion? I assume that it might be a little too strong. Looking at the WSP website for their color stabilizer's the M&P and Lotion versions cost less than half of the price for soap. Is that because it's different or that it isn't as strong?

Wanting to make some lotion today and the request I had yesterday was for vanilla.

TIA if anyone has any thoughts on this dilemma.

Edit - forgot the link: Homemade Vanilla color stabilizer (VCS) summary

What is the percentage vanilla are you adding to your lotion? Also are you putting it in clear packaging or coloured?

 

[Kcryss]

I had some unscented lotion on hand. So I just now added BB's Vanilla Select FO, 4 grams, to 8 oz. lotion. Just as I suspected, it did not affect the color at all -- and Vanilla Select is known for turning soap to a lovely shade of dark brown.

HTH

LOL, I did the same thing. Still waiting to see what happens. So far it hasn't changed at all, but it's only been a few hours. I have it in an open container so it is not closed off from air.

@Zany_in_CO I have had fragrance turn lotion brown, so I don’t think it’s safe to assume it won’t happen. It also didn’t happen right away.

Sorry @Kcryss that I can’t answer your question about the ZVCS. Maybe @AliOop has tried it or has some information for you.

Thanks dibbles!

Hi there,

I've seen comments by folks on other forums that range from "OMG, my bath bombs are brown!" to "Vanillin doesn't affect the color of anything but soap and has never turned my other B&B products brown or even tan."

My personal experience is that some lotions and other B&B bath products have turned tan (never brown) when using some fragrances that contain vanillin. Others were not affected, even with the same FO. I never thought to try VCS in them (homemade or otherwise) because I wasn't sure if it would be skin-safe in a leave-on product. If they make a version for lotions, that says to me that there is some need out there to prevent the color change that some folks do experience with some FOs.

I agree. I'm concerned about using anything that might not be skin safe.

Another guess would be that the reaction is perhaps ingredient-dependent. Perhaps some B&B products don't contain ingredients that react with vanillin to turn brown, while others do?

This could be it exactly. Would be nice if there was a list somewhere. lol "List of ingredients that don't like Vanillin."

@Kcryss if you are able to share, it would be interesting to see the ingredient list for the lotion version, and the usage rate. That would help you know if a) you can use the existing ZVCS formula, or b) whether you can dupe/adapt the lotion formula to make that yourself.

I don't know that Todd Ziegler is active here anymore (his name didn't come up when I tried typing it), but maybe he is and will see this and respond. He was the brainiac behind and formulator of ZVCS.

I tried his name with @ as well with the same result.

LOL, I would love to see the ingredient list for any VCS. Everywhere just lists "Fragrance."

I did find that Ashley Green (UGTS) recommends using 25% Sodium Thiosulfate and 75% distilled water to make VCS for soap. I think thiosulfate is less likely to cause skin issues, but even then, not sure I would want to risk it for something I am selling. I would be willing to buy the version from WSP, but I didn't want to wait that long for delivery. I've tried the jump in line thing before with them. Paid the extra and still didn't get my order for a month.

I've used FO's with small amounts of vanillin with no issue, but this one is 12%, so I'm a little worried about what might happen down the road.

What is the percentage vanilla are you adding to your lotion? Also are you putting it in clear packaging or coloured?

This one is French Vanilla and is 12%. I'm using amber bottles. Not sure if that will help in this instance or not however. I've done a lot of research today trying to decide what to do and it seems oxidation is what causes the darkening. I would think, in a closed container using a pump style lid, there would be little chance for oxidation to occur. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I get that way sometimes. lol


I let my paranoia rule me for today and opted to use Natural Citrus Fantasy. Smells yummy!

I still need to make the vanilla, but will wait to see what happens with my little experiment and see if @Zany_in_CO's turns brown or not too.
The ingredients in my lotion are pretty standard: Glycerin, colloidal oats, argan, grapeseed, sunflower, mct, mango, cetearyl, IPM, and euxyl pe 9010.

 

[AliOop]

I did find that Ashley Green (UGTS) recommends using 25% Sodium Thiosulfate and 75% distilled water to make VCS for soap. I think thiosulfate is less likely to cause skin issues, but even then, not sure I would want to risk it for something I am selling.

Ashley's blog post about homemade VCS was what instigated me to ask about that here on SMF, and for Todd to start experimenting with it. I was so impressed with his ability to research and understand the information he found in order to reverse-engineer it. But I'm with you, @Kcryss I'm not going to put something into a lotion unless I'm darn sure it will be ok on my skin.

 

[Kcryss]

Ashley's blog post about homemade VCS was what instigated me to ask about that here on SMF, and for Todd to start experimenting with it. I was so impressed with his ability to research and understand the information he found in order to reverse-engineer it.

Ahh ... nice! I knew you instigated the investigation but didn't know what brought it on.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

This one is French Vanilla and is 12%.

BB's Vanilla Select is 11%.
Fragrance Calc offers Light, Medium and 2% Strong. I chose "Strong".
It smells like vanilla pudding. A little too strong for my taste.

and see if @Zany_in_CO's turns brown or not too.

The lotion is in a pump bottle and is still white as can be today.

 

[LucyFae]

When I bought thiosulfate on Amazon, most of the reviews were people ingesting it for some sort of gut detox, treating topical fungal infections, or using it in a pool/fish tank. I'd probably test it on myself in lotion although I'd be weary of selling it without further research.

The MP version I made based on reading the ZVCS threads and the blog mentioned above has help up very well - still going a year later. Being only thiosulfate, the smell is much less offensive than the CP version. Probably not super helpful to you, but the thiosulfate itself, ime works wonders.

It's a shame all of the suppliers treat it as a top secret proprietary recipe. I kind of hate that the INCI is just fragrance, but I guess it is what it is. I'm so curious about their ingredients, especially WSP with their three different versions. I'm honestly surprised the bath bomb VCS at WSP is the same as CP. I figured it'd be closer to a leave on product since people sit in bath water, but what do I know?

 

[AliOop]

It's a shame all of the suppliers treat it as a top secret proprietary recipe. I kind of hate that the INCI is just fragrance, but I guess it is what it is. I'm so curious about their ingredients, especially WSP with their three different versions.

If you read all of Todd's posts about VCS, he was able to suss out the ingredients and likely amounts.

ETA: Post #111 on this page gives the specific percentages of the Crafter's Choice VCS, which is the one that WSP sells.

 

[LucyFae]

If you read all of Todd's posts about VCS, he was able to suss out the ingredients and likely amounts.

ETA: Post #111 on this page gives the specific percentages of the Crafter's Choice VCS, which is the one that WSP sells.

Thanks, i bookmarked it this time! I kinda felt like a stalker to the guy who made it, reading through like every post last year, including posts on different threads lol!

I'm more wondering their ratios, if they include other "proprietary" ingredients, and how different companies compare and decide which VCS can be used in what. What's different between WSPs lotion VCS and the CP version? I remember it was thought the difference between the MP and CP was the metabisulfite (sp?). And not just crafters choice, but most of the big suppliers have their own "version." I think Brambleberry or Nature's Garden says theirs can be used in all soap types and lotion, but haven't tested in bath bombs (or maybe the other way around), even though most suppliers I've seen have a dedicated CP version and a dedicated MP version.

But I'm probably over thinking it. I bet at least some of the answer is less about formulas and most about money.

Were you the person who helped develop the ZVCS? If so, a big thanks from me!

 

[AliOop]

Thanks, but my sole contribution was to post a link to Ashley Green's blog post about how to make VCS.

Todd Ziegler took it from there and did all the heavy lifting, from research to experimentation to very generous sharing of results. I sure hope he's doing well and that we will hear back from him at some point!

 

[Kcryss]

BB's Vanilla Select is 11%.
Fragrance Calc offers Light, Medium and 2% Strong. I chose "Strong".
It smells like vanilla pudding. A little too strong for my taste.


The lotion is in a pump bottle and is still white as can be today.

I have one sitting out in the open with no lid and still as white today as yesterday. Thinking about taking it outside and see if that changes anything. lol

When I bought thiosulfate on Amazon, most of the reviews were people ingesting it for some sort of gut detox, treating topical fungal infections, or using it in a pool/fish tank. I'd probably test it on myself in lotion although I'd be weary of selling it without further research.

The MP version I made based on reading the ZVCS threads and the blog mentioned above has help up very well - still going a year later. Being only thiosulfate, the smell is much less offensive than the CP version. Probably not super helpful to you, but the thiosulfate itself, ime works wonders.

It's a shame all of the suppliers treat it as a top secret proprietary recipe. I kind of hate that the INCI is just fragrance, but I guess it is what it is. I'm so curious about their ingredients, especially WSP with their three different versions. I'm honestly surprised the bath bomb VCS at WSP is the same as CP. I figured it'd be closer to a leave on product since people sit in bath water, but what do I know?

I'm thinking the lotion version has just the Thiosulfate without the other. Based on what I've seen, the other is much stronger and seems to be a bit riskier.

I don't understand why so proprietary either ... such a deep dark secret. lol Someday I'll take the time to research it and find out what the deep dark secret is all about.

 

[LucyFae]

I have one sitting out in the open with no lid and still as white today as yesterday. Thinking about taking it outside and see if that changes anything. lol


I'm thinking the lotion version has just the Thiosulfate without the other. Based on what I've seen, the other is much stronger and seems to be a bit riskier.

I don't understand why so proprietary either ... such a deep dark secret. lol Someday I'll take the time to research it and find out what the deep dark secret is all about.

That would be my guess too. Like I said, the thiosulfate is definitely less offensive smelling. I'm not sure lotion could cover up the scent from the CP version with the metabisulfite.

Did you test it out? How'd it go so far?

If I ever get the time, i too would love to do a deep dive on the VCS. I was on I think WSPs site recently and saw they have a vanilla stabilizer and I think a neutralizer, which I'm curious about too. I'll have to check it out and read the reviews when I put my order in

 

[Kcryss]

That would be my guess too. Like I said, the thiosulfate is definitely less offensive smelling. I'm not sure lotion could cover up the scent from the CP version with the metabisulfite.

Did you test it out? How'd it go so far?

If I ever get the time, i too would love to do a deep dive on the VCS. I was on I think WSPs site recently and saw they have a vanilla stabilizer and I think a neutralizer, which I'm curious about too. I'll have to check it out and read the reviews when I put my order in

I haven't ordered the thiosulfate yet, but I'm guessing it will work well with leave on products, at least compared to the metabisulfite. I still plan on ordering the thiosulfate, but I had a show to do and just haven't had time to source it.

I wonder how well the thiosulfate will work without the metabisulfite in HP soap when added after cook. I might give it a try and find out once I have it ordered.

The 12% FO I used in my sample lotion that I've left out in the open still has not changed color, although it is getting dried out now. I don't think in this case there will be a change. It must really depend on the FO used, not just the vanilla content.

 

[AliOop]

It must really depend on the FO used, not just the vanilla content.

The rest of the recipe may also play into it... maybe some oils react differently to vanillin?

 

[LucyFae]

I haven't ordered the thiosulfate yet, but I'm guessing it will work well with leave on products, at least compared to the metabisulfite. I still plan on ordering the thiosulfate, but I had a show to do and just haven't had time to source it.

I wonder how well the thiosulfate will work without the metabisulfite in HP soap when added after cook. I might give it a try and find out once I have it ordered.

The 12% FO I used in my sample lotion that I've left out in the open still has not changed color, although it is getting dried out now. I don't think in this case there will be a change. It must really depend on the FO used, not just the vanilla content.

I don't do much HP, but maybe I'll give the thiosulfage a try in lotion. I have one that discolored after a few months, so it'd be a good test.

I bought mine off Amazon, it was like 10$ or $15 for a big bottle, and I still have a lot left. I think Todd mentioned Amazon and ebay as being cheap/convenient.

I definitely think the FO and vanillin content, as well as other discoloring components, and maybe even the recipe as mentioned above can play a role. If I test the lotion, I'll try and remember to report back!

 

[Kcryss]

The rest of the recipe may also play into it... maybe some oils react differently to vanillin?

That could be it exactly.

I don't do much HP, but maybe I'll give the thiosulfage a try in lotion. I have one that discolored after a few months, so it'd be a good test.

I bought mine off Amazon, it was like 10$ or $15 for a big bottle, and I still have a lot left. I think Todd mentioned Amazon and ebay as being cheap/convenient.

I definitely think the FO and vanillin content, as well as other discoloring components, and maybe even the recipe as mentioned above can play a role. If I test the lotion, I'll try and remember to report back!

I'm going to order some and give it a try. I will try to remember to report back as well.

 

[glendam]

Another ingredient that has worked well for me is sodium bisulfate. It behaves as well as Natures’s garden vanilla stabilizer In soap. I still need to test it with a floral fragrance that has vanillin, but so far it has worked with bakery type scents. You can see a comparison experiment picture I just shared here.