Have a wee look at those ingredients to see what the differences are between that and yours Jane. It's probably SLS.
Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
- Thread starter KiwiMoose
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I’ve been avoiding SLS for over 20 years from when I found out it was lurking in my toothpaste causing many years of oral problems. That was one of the reasons I started using Deva products. I’m wondering if they may have tweaked their formula in some subtle way that just does not work for me. The More Mango has fewer ingredients with CapB and POLYQUATERNIUM-7, being the only two overlaps.
violets2217
Well-Known Member
My recipe uses honeyquat instead of the POLYQUATERNIUM-7 in my shampoo and conditioner bars...
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Mine too... mostly because I had honeyquat on hand and didn't want to order more ingredients
One note about CAPB, I think the irritation factor is when CAPB is used alone. In combination with other surfactants it becomes milder and less likely to cause irritations than on its own. I use CAPB in all of my shampoo bar versions and my mom loves them - she has extreme psoriasis on her scalp - and the shampoo bars help reduce irritation from washing and get her hair clean. I'm taking her a bar each of the Modified More Mango and the French Green Clay to see how she does with those. Kind of hoping that the clay bar will lend some healing properties, but well, it's shampoo not a miracle. We're happy if she's just able to wash her hair.
There are huge threads on multiple sites with people complaining that DevaCurl absolutely ruined their hair. Apparently there have been several large class action suits. Here is one thread you can read. You can also look up Ayesha Malik on YT to read all about her issues with DevaCurl. The pictures of changes to her hair are horrifying. It's hard to say whether they are lying, or whether they had a manufacturing issue in certain batches, or whether contraband products found their way into the mainstream market. Whatever it is, you are not alone in developing a problem with DevaCurl.
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Righto. Made my first failed syndet shampoo bar! Turns out that when I searched for Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate (a solid) I turned up Alpha Olefin Sulfonate (a liquid) so I purchased that which of course did not work and it only took me a couple of hours to figure out why my bar is still mouchy hours later. It's so obvious when you know. I've looked at four sites so far and can't find the BioTerge. Amazon carries a different brand, but in a one pound size. Is there a way to save my shampoo or do I need to toss it? I could put it in a jar and scoop it? Any suggestions where to purchase Bioterge? I'll try the French Clay Shampoo bar next.
I purchased BioTerge/C14-16 from Voyageur Soap and Candle. However, you can definitely use SCI powder instead if that is easier for you to source. That's what I did after I found out that BioTerge is better for oiler skin/hair, and I have very dry hair.
As for saving the existing bar, I'd recommend that you try remelting it and adding in some clay or starch to firm it up. However, you need to watch your pH to be sure it stays in the appropriate range. Also, if your product gets warm enough to kill the preservative (assuming you used one) you may need to add more of that, as well.
Oh! The recipe calls for 15g Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate and 22.5 g SCI. So I could try again with all SCI? I did add a fair amount of arrowroot per her suggestion in the recipe, but it is really not even firm. I did use Germall Plus but want to be careful not to mess with pH and germicides. All SCI seems like a better choice if that is better for dry hair. Voyager does carry Bioterge, but dry hair.
Sorry, I didn't realize your recipe already had SCI in it. SCI has a max usage limit of something around 50 to 60%, plus you also have to watch out for pH when subbing ingredients.
I just looked at BioTerge in HumbleBee's encyclopedia. She lists SLSa as a good sub. I had forgotten about that since that's exactly what I ended up using was SLSa instead of the BioTerge. The recipes came out just fine with that sub, too.
SLSa is a lot more readily available than BioTerge, and supposedly isn't as drying. I think WSP carries it under the trade name of Lathanol, but you can get regular old SLSa from most soaping suppliers, EBay, etc. HTH!
I just looked at BioTerge in HumbleBee's encyclopedia. She lists SLSa as a good sub. I had forgotten about that since that's exactly what I ended up using was SLSa instead of the BioTerge. The recipes came out just fine with that sub, too.
SLSa is a lot more readily available than BioTerge, and supposedly isn't as drying. I think WSP carries it under the trade name of Lathanol, but you can get regular old SLSa from most soaping suppliers, EBay, etc. HTH!
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Oops. I did all SCI. That puts my recipe at 75% SCI. I did read that an option for substitution is SLSa, but didn't do that. Toss it, I guess and try again. Third time and charms.
Actually, I have, use, and love a recipe from DIY Bath & Body that is 73% SCI. As I understand it, since the SCI we purchase is actually not 100% SCI, that works out to be much closer to 60 or 62% total SCI in the recipe, if I recall correctly.
But even if you don't feel comfortable using it on your hair, you can still use it for hand and body washing. I've done that with a few shampoo bars that I wasn't crazy about.
violets2217
Well-Known Member
@Janewoc17 - Same recipe I use and love as well! This recipe has quite a following among my friends and family that I share by shampoo & conditioner bars with.
Thank you AliOop and violets2217! I’m going to try using SCI shampoo bar today.
And… there. Purchased the DIY Bath and Body recipes for shampoo and conditioner.
Learning all these chemicals is certainly challenging my old brain! I’ll be getting a lot more careful when I’m buying ingredients since one letter or word makes an entirely different product… of course.
This feels like learning to cook by only having descriptions of the ingredients… for biscuits you take some sodium chloride (not potassium chloride) some sodium bicarbonate (not sodium carbonate!), wheat berries, ground but only after they are dried and not wheatgrass, cow milk or goat milk or soy milk…which is actually soy juice…
OH! I had forgotten about this issue with DevaCurl! Thank you for bringing it back to my attention. This may well be the cause of my crazy dermatitis reaction three years ago that has been plaguing me ever since.
Hello Ladies,
I used the SCI heavy shampoo (More Mango, sort of) bar with AliOop's hair conditioner bar this morning. My hair is curly and shiny and hasn't fallen out nor have I erupted in acute dermatitis! WooHoo! The fragrance is nearly undetectable but good lather. I haven't had squeaky clean hair in over a decade!
I bought the DIY Bath and Body Shampoo booklet and have everything I need to make it...except that I have SCI powder not noodles. Is that interchangeable? Probably not. After checking six web stores, I found some at Windy Point, nowhere in the US. What's up. Frogs! This is complicated!!
I have not had much success with the noodles. Powder is easier to use. In my experience, if you use a process that isn't heated and leave the noodles whole, they tend to fall out of the bar during use. SCI noodles are not very water soluble so they dissolve more slowly than the surrounding mixture, so they stick out and eventually fall out before really doing much.
One bar I made with only noodles, I made using the microwave method. I did eventually get it to melt enough to at least partially incorporate the noodles into the rest of the mix, but it was a pain. When I use powder only, I use a beaker in a hot water bath on the stovetop. The noodles just weren't melting that way, even with the water boiling, so I popped it in the microwave. It took forever because it cooled too quickly between bursts to be able to stir it well. I had to keep putting it back in the microwave. It might be easier if I made a bigger batch (it won't cool as quickly when I take it out to stir). The test bar I made was a full size bar (100g recipe) and my husband has been using it as shampoo and body wash. He is down to the last little bit and it never got mushy, which is probably due to the increased stearic acid content (added stearic acid is what holds the noodles' shape). So I will probably still keep using powder and just up the stearic acid a bit. That will be easier than microwaving it to death.
The next bar I made with noodles, I substituted a small amount of powered SCI with noodles I powdered in a mortar and pestle. I haven't finished using that bar yet but it seems to be working well.
Thank you for sharing your experience with noodles! I’ll go ahead and try working with the powder. So glad I didn’t order them.
@Janewoc17 - I'm not a fan of the noodles either. They don't melt as @Quanta has said, and the bars i make with the powder are more robust. However, I don't press mine, I pour them. I do sometimes order the noodles though, because they are significantly cheaper than the powder. I then grind them up into powder in my blender ( wear a mask!!).
violets2217
Well-Known Member
The recipe comes with one for powder and one for noodle in the booklet, at least mine did. So you should be good to go. I personally combined the two recipes and called it my hybrid shampoo bar! lol! I like the look of the noodles in my bars and they press better for me. I just melt everything together as the recipes says and mix well! I leave my stand mixer going for a long while! They still work just the same for me.
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I couldn't find C14-16 either. I bought some from Alioop who was destashing her inventory. I used SLSa as a sub in the More Mango recipe, and pH was in the 5 range. It's become my favorite shampoo bar. Compared it to the bar that I made with the C14-16, and I didn't notice a difference between the two.
As for the DIY recipe, their formula uses SCI at an unsafe rate. The creators' reasoning for the high usage is not sound, per two chemist friends (one of which is a cosmetic formulator). The water during use does not negate the safe usage rate of the shampoo bar. Even in concentrated forms, products need to follow safe usage rates.
