Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials

[Quanta]

Oh, I'd have to hunt down the scrap of paper I wrote that particular formula on.

May I recommend Google Sheets? It makes it super easy to keep track of recipe tweaks and changes, and notes on what worked and what didn't. I love it. I'm more disorganized than everyone I know when I have to keep track of papers. You probably aren't as disorganized as I am but Sheets will probably still make it easier for you to keep track of recipe tweaks, if you experiment as much as I do. If you're interested I can share my spreadsheet template.

Cocamidapropyl betaine was probably a small percentage, and a little Polysorbate 80 might have been in there too. I shampoo my hair daily, so my formulations tend to be weak compared to commercial ones.

I haven't tried polysorbate 80 yet. I haven't even bought any. What do you feel is the main benefit of using it in a shampoo bar?

Regarding weak shampoo, if by "weak" you mean it doesn't strip all the oil off your head, then I think that's a good shampoo no matter how often hair is washed. When the scalp is regularly stripped of oil, more oil is produced to replace it and the scalp just gets more oily. That's my experience anyway.

From what I have learned in my research, mixing multiple surfactants together makes a product milder. If you only have one or two, it tends to be harsher. So I use at least three in my bars and they're pretty mild. I have one with seven different surfactants (still mostly SCI though) and use it as body wash pretty frequently. I feel clean, but it removes so little oil from my skin that I don't feel like I need lotion after a shower. It's great. That one however is having a hard time staying together and not turning to mush, so I may re-formulate it. Looking at my formula I think I didn't have enough hardener in it.

ETA: different hair types, skin types, and life styles all do better with different formulations. I don't mean to imply that high amounts of SCI or any other surfactant are wrong or bad. I was only intending to state what works for me, and I meant to imply that safety isn't the only consideration when trying to find the right formula for your hair.

Agreed. I customize shampoo and conditioner for my testers, based on hair type.

 

[GemstonePony]

May I recommend Google Sheets? It makes it super easy to keep track of recipe tweaks and changes, and notes on what worked and what didn't. I love it. I'm more disorganized than everyone I know when I have to keep track of papers. You probably aren't as disorganized as I am but Sheets will probably still make it easier for you to keep track of recipe tweaks, if you experiment as much as I do. If you're interested I can share my spreadsheet template.


I haven't tried polysorbate 80 yet. I haven't even bought any. What do you feel is the main benefit of using it in a shampoo bar?

Regarding weak shampoo, if by "weak" you mean it doesn't strip all the oil off your head, then I think that's a good shampoo no matter how often hair is washed. When the scalp is regularly stripped of oil, more oil is produced to replace it and the scalp just gets more oily. That's my experience anyway.

From what I have learned in my research, mixing multiple surfactants together makes a product milder. If you only have one or two, it tends to be harsher. So I use at least three in my bars and they're pretty mild. I have one with seven different surfactants (still mostly SCI though) and use it as body wash pretty frequently. I feel clean, but it removes so little oil from my skin that I don't feel like I need lotion after a shower. It's great. That one however is having a hard time staying together and not turning to mush, so I may re-formulate it. Looking at my formula I think I didn't have enough hardener in it.


Agreed. I customize shampoo and conditioner for my testers, based on hair type.

Oh, I know I need a new organizational system, but staying organized is so much work!.. and I just haven't tackled it in earnest yet.
PS-80 was to help the oils incorporate into the SCI mixture. SCI has a gentle reputation because it doesn't tend to bond as well with oils, which is just a little inconvenient when trying to incorporate oils into a melted SCI mixture.
And I love my shampoo, I just didn't want to sound like I was looking down on everyone else's. Guess I must have overdone it.
Interesting to know about the surfactant combo, I would not have imagined that! Since what works for me is still working, I'll probably keep going with what I'm doing, but I'll keep that in mind when considering formulations.

 

[HowieRoll]

Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, "An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75 grams (of SCI) divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "

Thank you for posting this, Misschief. It is similar to the response I received to my inquiry, as well.

If I may (and not directed at anyone in particular, just general thoughts for anyone who may be interested), the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate, especially by so much, only because worst-case-scenario if someone has a reaction and I'm taken to court I believe the onus would be on me to prove all ingredients were used within tested safety limits, among other things. As a DIYer, I'm not paying for private toxicology testing so I must rely on supplier's guidelines and studies already available, and unfortunately, I've been unable to find any studies showing such a high level of SCI is safe (again, not meaning it's unsafe, just that I can't find where it's been proven safe at this usage rate, and this is a distinction I feel is important. Another important note is just because I couldn't find such a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and if anyone is aware of one I'd love to see it!). My issue with the Etsy recipe was that the sellers specifically stated the ingredients have been deemed safe for use in the percentages provided, but being "deemed safe" appears to be based on their own conjecture, not scientific data. Because I'm a worry-wort it presents a liability issue I'm not personally comfortable with, but everyone has their own levels of risk and liability assessment.

 

[Quanta]

Oh, I know I need a new organizational system, but staying organized is so much work!.. and I just haven't tackled it in earnest yet.

My system is so easy, even I can do it! And that's saying a lot. If you'd like, I can start a new thread on it so this one doesn't get hijacked. I'll share my spreadsheets and method and you can see if you like it. I'll post a link here when I start that thread, maybe in the next day or two. My formulating spreadsheet I think is ready to share but I need to polish up my ingredient costs spreadsheet a little first.

PS-80 was to help the oils incorporate into the SCI mixture. SCI has a gentle reputation because it doesn't tend to bond as well with oils, which is just a little inconvenient when trying to incorporate oils into a melted SCI mixture.

Over at the Chemist Corner forum, I found out that oils in shampoo don't work the way most people think they do. Oils in a surfactant mixture are removed by the surfactants and don't deposit on the hair. When I discovered that I stopped putting so much oil in my shampoo but I still include a small amount (1% coconut 76°) because it helps it glide smoothly over the hair when applying (I tried it with and without). But to get oil to deposit on the hair/scalp, I use a conditioner bar which is 6% coconut oil, 5% shea butter and 5% cocoa butter. I also have two kinds of silicone in there and I think that's what is really making my hair silky but the oils/butters should be helping my scalp. I have noticed that my scalp seems healthier since I've been using my own products.

And I love my shampoo, I just didn't want to sound like I was looking down on everyone else's. Guess I must have overdone it.
Interesting to know about the surfactant combo, I would not have imagined that! Since what works for me is still working, I'll probably keep going with what I'm doing, but I'll keep that in mind when considering formulations.

If your own shampoo seems really mild, and you're using only one or two surfactants that are already mild on their own and blending with oils, I suspect your bars are even milder partly because of the oils (which is probably the true function of the oils in your formula). I think it's the same way 100% coconut oil soap with a really high superfat is mild, it's because some of the soap is tied up removing oil from the superfat portion of the soap and so you don't get the full effect of coconut oil stripping oil from your skin. That's my theory anyway.

 

[amd]

Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, "An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75 grams (of SCI) divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "

the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate,

If I may also add some information as well. When I first purchased the shampoo bar recipe, I noticed the high percentage of SCI and also saw the numerous defenses of it by the maker, so I decided to end all doubt in my mind and asked the two chemists that I know. They both debunked the dilution theory stated by the maker as "fallacy thinking". The maximum usage rate is 50-55%, regardless of the product used in. There is no control over how or when the shampoo bar is diluted and that should not be considered when formulating. Even concentrated products that are sold to be diluted by the user must maintain safe usage rates for all of their ingredients. I have taken this recipe and tweaked it to be within safe usage rates as well based on this advice.

 

[violets2217]

I have taken this recipe and tweaked it to be within safe usage rates as well based on this advice.

SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there? I probably won't be experimenting anytime soon, because I have enough shampoo bars to last a LONG while and I already love the bars I have. I'm sure the possibilities are endless just looking for ideas, I guess.
ETA: This morning I did order some VegeKeratin from Lotioncrafter....

 

[Quanta]

SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there? I probably won't be experimenting anytime soon, because I have enough shampoo bars to last a LONG while and I already love the bars I have. I'm sure the possibilities are endless just looking for ideas, I guess.
ETA: This morning I did order some VegeKeratin from Lotioncrafter....

What other powdered surfactants are already in the recipe, and at what percentage? If there's no SLSa, then I would use that. Mine are 53% SCI and 20% SLSa and it works well for me. There are other options depending on hair type.

 

[violets2217]

What other powdered surfactants are already in the recipe, and at what percentage? If there's no SLSa, then I would use that. Mine are 53% SCI and 20% SLSa and it works well for me. There are other options depending on hair type.

I've been searching various online solid shampoo bar recipes and noticed most use around 70% powdered surfactants... The recipe I bought uses both 73% SCI and 7% SLSa, so in theory I could just raise the amount of SLSa? I just like the hardness of my bars, they last forever and are very sudsy. I don't want to give up those qualities. Thanks for the reply...I'm gonna keep researching and check out other recipes, but next time will probably adjust the SLSa....

 

[Quanta]

I've been searching various online solid shampoo bar recipes and noticed most use around 70% powdered surfactants... The recipe I bought uses both 73% SCI and 7% SLSa, so in theory I could just raise the amount of SLSa? I just like the hardness of my bars, they last forever and are very sudsy. I don't want to give up those qualities. Thanks for the reply...I'm gonna keep researching and check out other recipes, but next time will probably adjust the SLSa....

Honestly, if you up the SLSa a bit and lower the SCI, your bars may well be even more sudsy. I get plenty of lather from mine, and I have less SCI and more SLSa than yours. Don't add more liquid and don't lower the total powder, you're just swapping out some of one powder for another. It shouldn't make your bars softer.

 

[Gaisy59]

Thank you for posting this, Misschief. It is similar to the response I received to my inquiry, as well.

If I may (and not directed at anyone in particular, just general thoughts for anyone who may be interested), the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate, especially by so much, only because worst-case-scenario if someone has a reaction and I'm taken to court I believe the onus would be on me to prove all ingredients were used within tested safety limits, among other things. As a DIYer, I'm not paying for private toxicology testing so I must rely on supplier's guidelines and studies already available, and unfortunately, I've been unable to find any studies showing such a high level of SCI is safe (again, not meaning it's unsafe, just that I can't find where it's been proven safe at this usage rate, and this is a distinction I feel is important. Another important note is just because I couldn't find such a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and if anyone is aware of one I'd love to see it!). My issue with the Etsy recipe was that the sellers specifically stated the ingredients have been deemed safe for use in the percentages provided, but being "deemed safe" appears to be based on their own conjecture, not scientific data. Because I'm a worry-wort it presents a liability issue I'm not personally comfortable with, but everyone has their own levels of risk and liability assessment.

I agree with you. And just to make a point i think she had to make a statement because a few other people told her about the high level of SCI. I personally found her response to my question a bit rude, but i would never put her product down. As stated before i just made adjustments. Having said this i then proceeded to follow KiwiMoose down her rabbit hole and developed my own recipe

 

[amd]

SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there?

I don't have the exact % handy, but I used the SCI at the max, I think it's 55% and that seems to jive with what I remember my recipe ending up at, and then played with the amount of SLSa and CAPB. I used powdered SCI rather than the noodles (I never could get the noodles melted enough to not come off the shampoo bar in bits, and every time my husband dropped it in the shower it would break apart) and I discovered I could go a bit higher on the CAPB using the powder than I could with the noodles. With the noodles it seemed like adding more CAPB made the bar really sticky and took several weeks of curing/drying to get the stickiness to go away. I did have to watch how much SLSa I used because it got to a point where it stripped out my cheap hair color. So it was a bit of playing around to get something that was a good pH (my goal was 5 or less, what I use now is 4.5) and held it's shape nicely. I press mine, so it needed to be workable for that without too much fuss.

 

[AliOop]

So it was a bit of playing around to get something that was a good pH (my goal was 5 or less, what I use now is 4.5) and held it's shape nicely. I press mine, so it needed to be workable for that without too much fuss.

I think mine are hovering around 6 or so, and noticed that it pulled out a fair amount of my recent color job, as well.

Is there anything you feel comfortable sharing regarding how you brought yours down? No worries if that is too proprietary and not something you want to share here.

 

[amd]

Trial and error, I don't understand the chemistry enough to understand how the different ingredients will affect pH, so mostly I had to play around with the ingredients I had available and then working within those safe usage rates. It helped that I had very clear requirements for what I needed from the bar - the first being that it had to NOT be a pita to press. From there it was tweaking to get a bar that wasn't sticky, warped or broke easily, and then finally testing the pH. Occasionally heading back to the drawing board to start over when the pH was too high. I was making pretty small bars - around 30g each for these experiments as mostly I just wanted to be able to test the pH, and I could tell by feel if they would press or not. Keep in mind, I have a business and had created a budget for playing with shampoo bar ingredients, so this wasn't painful for me. It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.

I'm not as good about checking SMF when I'm at home... but I might have something that I sent to someone else - maybe Gaisy, that I could reference.

 

[Gaisy59]

Trial and error, I don't understand the chemistry enough to understand how the different ingredients will affect pH, so mostly I had to play around with the ingredients I had available and then working within those safe usage rates. It helped that I had very clear requirements for what I needed from the bar - the first being that it had to NOT be a pita to press. From there it was tweaking to get a bar that wasn't sticky, warped or broke easily, and then finally testing the pH. Occasionally heading back to the drawing board to start over when the pH was too high. I was making pretty small bars - around 30g each for these experiments as mostly I just wanted to be able to test the pH, and I could tell by feel if they would press or not. Keep in mind, I have a business and had created a budget for playing with shampoo bar ingredients, so this wasn't painful for me. It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.

I'm not as good about checking SMF when I'm at home... but I might have something that I sent to someone else - maybe Gaisy, that I could reference.

Hi all. Ya i never did play with her recipe. In all honesty i was ticked off with her snarky answer. What happened for me was that I decided to make my own recipe from scratch and it came out to 4-4.5. I was following in KiwiMoose’s footsteps and tried to make it friendly. I like it very much and my sister-in-law took it to her cabin and her crew there liked it.

In fact, amd you and i were discussing it at one point.

 

[amd]

Ahhh... yes... I found a version I had tested in March 2020, it came at 5:
SCI 46%
BTMS50 13%
CAPB 15%
Cocoa Butter 10%
Additives at 2% each
DL Panthenol powder
Fragrance
Broccoli Seed Oil
Glycerin
Bamboo Extract Powder
Agar Agar
Silk Amino Acids (liquid)

I've since tweaked this bar with the discovery of SCI powder so that I could bump up the SCI and CAPB, added SLSa back in, and dumped some of the additives - glycerin and agar agar made the bar sticky, I think I also switched out the cocoa butter for walnut oil as I had some that was coming to the end of its shelf life. I really don't notice a difference between oils either so I swap them out depending on what I'm not using in other products that does need to be used up. Broccoli seed oil didnt seem to make a noticeable difference to either the pH or the bar performance, but I did like the bamboo extract powder so I kept that. Oh, and I think I went back to equal parts BTMS25 and cetyl alcohol, or maybe equal parts BTMS50 and cetyl alcohol. I wish I could remember better (and you think I would as I made an unfragranced batch a month ago for a customer...).

 

[amd]

In fact, amd you and i were discussing it at one point.

I found that conversation! I've done a lot of tweaking since then. I used a combination of looking at the Etsy recipe and making some semi-educated guesses from other maker labels. The one above is from Royalty Soap (which only has 2 surfactants), although the Royalty Soap bar had high pH and fried my hair. It was good for a few days, and then I realized all the extra body I was seeing was actually damage to my hair, that's when I tested the RS bar pH. My tweaked recipe is 5 as mentioned, so I guess my semi-educated guesses weren't that great (or were they? ha) as I would have had a higher pH. Regardless, after the 2-3 weeks that it took for the bar to dry and stop being sticky it was a nice bar.

I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.

 

[Gaisy59]

I found that conversation! I've done a lot of tweaking since then. I used a combination of looking at the Etsy recipe and making some semi-educated guesses from other maker labels. The one above is from Royalty Soap (which only has 2 surfactants), although the Royalty Soap bar had high pH and fried my hair. It was good for a few days, and then I realized all the extra body I was seeing was actually damage to my hair, that's when I tested the RS bar pH. My tweaked recipe is 5 as mentioned, so I guess my semi-educated guesses weren't that great (or were they? ha) as I would have had a higher pH. Regardless, after the 2-3 weeks that it took for the bar to dry and stop being sticky it was a nice bar.

I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.

Here is what i was working with:
SCI 50g
SLSa 5 g
Varisoft. 10g
Foamin apple. 10g
Capryl gluco. 5 g
Cetyl alcohol. 5 g
Kokum butter. 5 g
Hemisqualane 2 g
Lactic acid 1 g
Panthenol. 1 g
Germall plus. 1 g
Fragrance. 5 g

Dahila told me to skip panthenol in the shampoo and use it in conditioner. So i have to readjust for my next batch. It was soft so i think i will change the liquids and up the slsa a bit and/or SCI to 52

 

[KiwiMoose]

^mine is similar to @Gaisy's with a few tweaks - if you look at the opening posts of this thread I think I have outlined it there. My pH is adjust ed by adding lactic acid - and the last batch tested at 5.3. The one cited early in this thread was 4.6 I think. Just add more acid if you want to lower the pH @AliOop - but be careful because it only needs a little bit (like a few grams).

 

[AliOop]

@KiwiMoose thank you so much! I'll go back and take some notes this time.

 

[Quanta]

It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.

In the very beginning of my shampoo trials, it was all trial and error. Mostly error. So the errors got used as body wash just to use them up and nothing was wasted. But I plan to sell so to me it's worth making sure I have something worth selling. I have a few more tweaks to try but my testers are giving me positive feedback so I'm close.