Superfatting.... some questions

[Cashie]

I'm still a little unclear on the whole superfat term. In hot process, it makes a lot of sense to my poor tired brain, since I add my superfat oils after the batch is cooked and saponified, so my superfats stay... ummm.. superfatted? unsaponified?

In cold process, we're supposed to add the superfat at trace, right? but the soap saponifies during the cure, so how are we sure that my lovely superfatted oils aren't being absorbed and saponified?

Also, in soapcalc, I always put in that I am superfatting at 5-8%, but I never see that calculation in my recipe once I calculate it. In cold or hot process, do I just add 5-8% of total oil weight in superfat oils after trace (cold process), or after cook (in hot process)? I generally use either avocado oil or shea butter.

 

[CaraBou]

You are correct that you can control what oils are not saponified in HP. And you are partly correct about CP in that you can't control what gets saponified and what doesn't. Where you went wrong with CP is the belief that you would add any new oil at trace. In CP, you combine all of your oils right from the start; no reason to hold any back.

In soapcalc, the percentage that you specify in the "Superfat" field affects the amount of lye that is calculated for you (and possibly water too, depending on how you use the "Water" field). Think of this as a "lye discount method" of achieving a superfatted soap. This method does not affect the amount of oil used in the recipe. A recipe that calls for 500 g of oil will contain that amount of oil no matter what you set "Superfat" to. Play around with soapcalc and you will see.

The lye discount method provided by soapcalc and other soap calculators is really straight forward for CP soaps since you don't have to worry how much oil to hold back or add. It gets a little more complicated for HP. Since I'm mostly a CP'er, and I have poor, tired brain at this point too, I'll leave that topic for someone else to pick up on!

 

[CaraBou]

do I just add 5-8% of total oil weight in superfat oils after after cook (in hot process)? I generally use either avocado oil or shea butter.

Bump! This has been sitting a few days. I'm hoping an HP'er can lend Cashie some clear guidance on superfatting. As I understand it there is more than one way but I rarely do HP so don't want to butcher or unnecessarily complicate things.

 

[lpstephy85]

When I do HP, I do my normal superfat of 8% and then add about 3-4 ounces of an extra oil at the end of the cook. This is the oil I mix my colorants in. My batches are about 54 ounces of oils so if my math is correct I am only adding an additional 1-2% superfat. Hope that helps

 

[CaraBou]

Thanks lpstephy. That sounds like a very conditioning bar!

What would you (or anyone else) recommend as the minimum amount of "lye discount" % for the base batch, before the extra superfat oils are added? You said you do 8%. I was wondering, if a person wanted to be more deliberate with their additive superfat oils after the cook, they might shrink that down -- but to what? Maybe 2 or 3% just to give a little room for inaccurate measurements or other fudge factors? Or is that too low? And then multiply your total base batch oils by whatever deliberate superfat % you want, and that's the amount of extra oil you add? So for example, do 5% for the deliberate after-cook oils, and when added to the base 2 or 3% superfat from lye discount, you would end up with 7% or 8%?

 

[lpstephy85]

I have never gone below 5% on any of my batches out of a force of habit. I would say to just play around with a small batch and see what works for ya

I don't claim to understand the superfatting in HP so I guess that is why I stick with my 8% and then whatever I add after the cook is what I get. If I understand it then for example it is just the weight of oils times the weight of the extra oils but you have to move the decimal of the extra oil. 4oz of extra oil becomes .04 so 54oz x .04= 2.16%

Hope I have this right and didn't confuse you

 

[seven]

What would you (or anyone else) recommend as the minimum amount of "lye discount" % for the base batch, before the extra superfat oils are added? You said you do 8%. I was wondering, if a person wanted to be more deliberate with their additive superfat oils after the cook, they might shrink that down -- but to what? Maybe 2 or 3% just to give a little room for inaccurate measurements or other fudge factors? Or is that too low? And then multiply your total base batch oils by whatever deliberate superfat % you want, and that's the amount of extra oil you add? So for example, do 5% for the deliberate after-cook oils, and when added to the base 2 or 3% superfat from lye discount, you would end up with 7% or 8%?

i don't recommend this, simply saying that this is what i do with HP.. 1% SF with the lye calc, then add whatever amount of SF i want after the cook (usually it's another 4-5, depending on what oils were used). my batches are small (2 lbs-ish), and i know it doesn't leave a lot of room for error at all, but i'm pretty comfortable doing it so far.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Someone please correct my thinking if I am wrong on the issue of using a low SF before the cook and then adding in oils after and the risk of using this low SF number -

Let's say you're planning on using a 1% SF in HP and then adding more oils after the cook. Let's say you badly mis-measure and you end up with a lye heavy soap after the cook. Pause!

You are adding in more oils at this stage. Yes, the soap is cooked and so if it wasn't lye heavy we would then have it as superfat. But if the soap IS lye heavy, any remaining lye would still react with the newly added oils - meaning it would end up NOT being lye heavy.

Just because it is 'cooked' as we call it, does not mean that any remaining lye would not still saponify when you add more oils.

If your total SF is 10% or 11%, you will just have less remaining oils after molding and so on.

The issues I can see are mixing it correctly, but then you'd mix well so that you don't have lumps of you SF oil in certain places. Also it will take some time for any excess lye to saponify, so until then you'd need gloves etc when handling.

With that in mind I don't think there is too much of an issue with that process. Maybe go to 2% or 3% before the cook if you are feeling unsure

 

[brigettevelasquez]

Hi ladies! Got an ebook about soap making and it says that for:

CP SOAP (add at LIGHT TRACE)

HP SOAP (add at COOLING DOWN STAGE or COMPLETE GEL PHASE)

 

[shunt2011]

This is an older post but adding your superfat at trace in CP makes no difference in what oils are saponified so you may as well just add them with the rest of your oils. That's been discussed many times here and seems to be the general consensus.

 

[seven]

ditto what shunt said. no point in adding your so called sf oils at trace with cp. dont get to pick n choose with cp. for that, there is hp.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...When I do HP, I do my normal superfat of 8% and then add about 3-4 ounces of an extra oil at the end of the cook. This is the oil I mix my colorants in. My batches are about 54 ounces of oils so if my math is correct I am only adding an additional 1-2% superfat...."

If I'm following this correctly, here's the math for this recipe:

8% Superfat oil = 0.08 * 54 = 4.32 oz
Colorant oil = 3 to 4 oz. (I'll pick 4 oz)

Total oil in the recipe = original oil + colorant oil = 54 + 4 = 58 oz
Total superfat oil = 4.32 + 4 = 8.32 oz

Overall superfat % = 8.32 / 58 * 100 = 14.3%

So the additional 3-4 oz adds a whopping 6% to the original 8% superfat, not 1-2%.
If the colorant oil is part of the original 54 oz, not added to the 54 oz, that puts the overall superfat % at 8.32 / 54 * 100 = 15.4%.

 

[lpstephy85]

DeeAnna, it is 3-4oz total, not per color (if that is what you are thinking I am saying). If not, I will be the first to admit I am horrible at math

 

[new12soap]

I think your math is off. If you are calculating a superfat of 8%, then adding another 4 oz of oils after the cook (which is a little over 7%), your soap is superfatted at 15%. If you wanted to add 2% of superfat, you would calculate 54 x .02 = 1.08 ounces, and you are using 3 to 4 times that much.

If I were going to add 7% superfat after the cook (which I wouldn't bother doing, just my personal preference, I add all my oils at the beginning for HP) I would absolutely cut my lye discount waaaaaaaaaay down at the beginning.

As for adding your superfat oils at trace for CP, the science says you are wasting your time, it does not work.

As for how lye calculators work, you put in what discount you want and it adds that to the lye calculation. If you set it to zero, write down how much lye it says to use, then change it to 5% and see how much lye it says to use, you will see the difference. It does all the math, you don't have to add more oils.

 

[lpstephy85]

Thanks

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

.................which I wouldn't bother doing, just my personal preference, I add all my oils at the beginning for HP....................

Keeping some back helps with HP swirls in the pot, for instance. It also allows a medium for distributing the scent evenly. Lastly, if you are adding in a speciality oil that you don't want to have saponified, or maybe just 1 or 2% of it saponified, then you can add this after the cook, too.

 

[new12soap]

Oh I am well aware of all the arguments "for", but I have been doing almost exclusively HP for quite a long time now and I have no problem with ITP swirls or scent distribution. That was as stated simply an aside about my personal preference, not a recommendation for or against.

The point was about the amount of superfat and measuring correctly, and that adding sf oils at trace in CP does not work.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Ah, okay - it was the "which I wouldn't bother doing" part which prompted the reply.

I 100% agree that CP it is best just to put it all in at the start, not waiting for trace

 

[DeeAnna]

lpstephy85 -- Yep, I assumed you were using a total of 3-4 oz for all of your colorants. By the way, thank you for making sure I was thinking about it correctly! I wasn't entirely sure, so tis always good to double check. It's easy to get confused.

 

[lpstephy85]

lpstephy85 -- Yep, I assumed you were using a total of 3-4 oz for all of your colorants. By the way, thank you for making sure I was thinking about it correctly! I wasn't entirely sure, so tis always good to double check. It's easy to get confused.

No problem

And thank you for pointing out that my math, as I have always known, is utterly atrocious! Is there anything wrong with that amount of superfat? I assume that can lead to DOS, correct?