Sunflower oil as a main carrier in soap ?

[grrrrr im a bear]

Hi guys I'm thinking of starting a first batch of soap due to expenses since its my very first batch I want to cut down on costs as much as I can before I see what works for me and then get to the point of experimenting. sunflower and canola oil are the cheapest oils available and I want to use either of them for the recipe along with coconut oil but I'm wondering if my soap bar might be too soft. should I experiment with adding stearic acid for more hardness.

here's what I was thinking

70% sunflower oil 25oz
30% coconut oil 11oz

superfat 5%
lye concentration at 30% 5oz (288g)
cow milk 10oz (142g)

will the bar be to soft or slimy/greasy anyone have experience using fewer oils (just 2) in a recipe to make soap. i really wanna know if i can make this work maybe i might need some additives to get the texture or lather right ik milk has lactic acid and sugars that might help make the lather better even though it might just be insignificant 1i want to know how sunflower oil might lather some benefits is see to using it is tht it has stuff like vitamin E and is non comedogenic plus its ph is closer to the skins natural ph than other oils

here is soapcalc index

​	Range​	Your Recipe
Hardness	29 - 54​	31​
Cleansing	12 - 22​	20​
Conditioning	44 - 69​	64​
Bubbly	14 - 46​	20​
Creamy	16 - 48​	11​
Iodine	41 - 70​	96​
INS	136 - 165​	121​

 

[KiwiMoose]

I don't think it will make very good soap, sorry. It will make soap, so go ahead and experiment if you like - but you will eventually want to tweak that for a better quality soap.
You need something for bubbles (Coconut Oil)
Something for hardness and longevity (Palm, animal fat, or soy wax)
Something for 'moisturising' even though soap doesn't moisturise per se (Olive, Sunflower, Sweet Almond, etc..)
Most people consider 30% coconut oil too high - more bubbles = more cleansing = dry skin.
I personally would not use any milks until you have more experience with soap making. It's just another level of complexity you don't need right now.

This article might help:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/

 

[artemis]

Make a small batch! 16 oz is a good size. You will have enough to test & share and you won't feel like you wasted materials if it doesn't turn out. How pricey is lard for you?

Also, make sure your sunflower oil is high oleic. It should say on the label.

I agree with @KiwiMoose about the milk.

 

[cmzaha]

Artemis is correct you want to make sure you are using High Oleic Sunflower if you want to use that high a percentage, I never recommend higher than 20% regular sunflower oil. As far as your recipe I can almost promise it is not a nice recipe that it is also subjective, you may like it. On the other hand as your first batch of soap you really have nothing to compare with so do not know a good from less than good soap. But I can tell you that soap is going to be quite cleansing and not hold up well in the shower. Soap is not cheap to make today, so you just have to get past that if you want to make a nice quality soap or frankly not make it. I have seen prices double and triple for oil supplies so I am glad I no longer sell.

You really do need to add in a hard oil such as lard, tallow, soy wax, or palm oil to add longevity to your bar or you will end up with a squishy short life bar of soap in the shower over time. I never like OO in soap so used both Canola and Sunflower HO whichever my supplier had at the best price at the time but I only used them between 15-20% even. My soaps were high tallow/lard or palm/shea combination with 13-17% CO. I still have 3 crates of soaps since I quit soaping during covid and none show signs of DOS and only get nicer and nicer albeit some have lost fragrance. I would itch forever with 30% CO. I have used soaps I know are formulated with 25% CO and I cannot use them either.

So the biggest suggestion I have is you is that have to experiment and not focus just on cost because today lost cost soap and quality is just not going to happen. Make small one-lb batches with 13 oz of oils, so you are not wasting a large amount of ingredients. Welcome to the world of Soap Making.

 

[AliOop]

i want to know how sunflower oil might lather some benefits is see to using it is tht it has stuff like vitamin E and is non comedogenic plus its ph is closer to the skins natural ph than other oils

One thing to remember is that once the oil comes in contact with lye, it is split apart to make soap. That's why a comedogenic oil doesn't translate into comedogenic soap, and oil with vitamin E in it doesn't mean you will have vitamin E in your soap.

About pH: Oils don't have a pH value. After the oils are converted by lye into soap, that soap is going to be at least 9 pH. If you try to reduce it lower than that, it will not remain soap - it will break into an oily mess. So, rather than focusing on the pH of your soap, focus on reducing the cleansing number, and increasing the conditioning number. That will reduce the drying effects of the soap.

 

[grrrrr im a bear]

Artemis is correct you want to make sure you are using High Oleic Sunflower if you want to use that high a percentage, I never recommend higher than 20% regular sunflower oil. As far as your recipe I can almost promise it is not a nice recipe that it is also subjective, you may like it. On the other hand as your first batch of soap you really have nothing to compare with so do not know a good from less than good soap. But I can tell you that soap is going to be quite cleansing and not hold up well in the shower. Soap is not cheap to make today, so you just have to get past that if you want to make a nice quality soap or frankly not make it. I have seen prices double and triple for oil supplies so I am glad I no longer sell.

You really do need to add in a hard oil such as lard, tallow, soy wax, or palm oil to add longevity to your bar or you will end up with a squishy short life bar of soap in the shower over time. I never like OO in soap so used both Canola and Sunflower HO whichever my supplier had at the best price at the time but I only used them between 15-20% even. My soaps were high tallow/lard or palm/shea combination with 13-17% CO. I still have 3 crates of soaps since I quit soaping during covid and none show signs of DOS and only get nicer and nicer albeit some have lost fragrance. I would itch forever with 30% CO. I have used soaps I know are formulated with 25% CO and I cannot use them either.

So the biggest suggestion I have is you is that have to experiment and not focus just on cost because today lost cost soap and quality is just not going to happen. Make small one-lb batches with 13 oz of oils, so you are not wasting a large amount of ingredients. Welcome to the world of Soap Making.

Thanks that makes a lot of sense

I don't think it will make very good soap, sorry. It will make soap, so go ahead and experiment if you like - but you will eventually want to tweak that for a better quality soap.
You need something for bubbles (Coconut Oil)
Something for hardness and longevity (Palm, animal fat, or soy wax)
Something for 'moisturising' even though soap doesn't moisturise per se (Olive, Sunflower, Sweet Almond, etc..)
Most people consider 30% coconut oil too high - more bubbles = more cleansing = dry skin.
I personally would not use any milks until you have more experience with soap making. It's just another level of complexity you don't need right now.

This article might help:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/

Thanks for the advice I'll tweak the recipe. I thought that if you're using sunflower oil that has a higher conditioning factor that it might reduce or dilute the harsh cleansing factor of the coconut oil.

I don't think it will make very good soap, sorry. It will make soap, so go ahead and experiment if you like - but you will eventually want to tweak that for a better quality soap.
You need something for bubbles (Coconut Oil)
Something for hardness and longevity (Palm, animal fat, or soy wax)
Something for 'moisturising' even though soap doesn't moisturise per se (Olive, Sunflower, Sweet Almond, etc..)
Most people consider 30% coconut oil too high - more bubbles = more cleansing = dry skin.
I personally would not use any milks until you have more experience with soap making. It's just another level of complexity you don't need right now.

This article might help:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-so

Thanks for the advice I'll tweak the recipe. I thought that if you're using sunflower oil that has a higher conditioning factor that it might reduce or dilute the harsh cleansing factor of the coconut oil.

KiwiMoose any idea what the consistency of the soap might be like from the recipe. It'll give me a good idea on what I'm currently looking at so that i can know when tweaking the recipe and making changes.

 

[KiwiMoose]

@grrrrr im a bear It will still make soap, but I would use at least 33% - 35% lye concentration otherwise it will take a while to harden, and possibly be a bit mushy when it gets wet. You can't 'offset' extra cleansing I'm afraid. If you use 30% CO it will always be that cleansing. Maybe try 25%? Can you get one other hard oil or butter in there? Shea is not as expensive as others. Maybe try 25% CO, 20% Shea, and the balance Sunflower. Sunflower does not have good longevity unless you get the high oleic variety, so you soap may not have a good shelf-life.
If you're after cost effective, I'm guessing lard would be the better option - try 25% CO, 50% lard and the balance sunflower.
Good luck.

 

[cmzaha]

@grrrrr im a bear It will still make soap, but I would use at least 33% - 35% lye concentration otherwise it will take a while to harden, and possibly be a bit mushy when it gets wet. You can't 'offset' extra cleansing I'm afraid. If you use 30% CO it will always be that cleansing. Maybe try 25%? Can you get one other hard oil or butter in there? Shea is not as expensive as others. Maybe try 25% CO, 20% Shea, and the balance Sunflower. Sunflower does not have good longevity unless you get the high oleic variety, so you soap may not have a good shelf-life.
If you're after cost effective, I'm guessing lard would be the better option - try 25% CO, 50% lard and the balance sunflower.
Good luck.

At least here in So Cal my 50 lb of lard has gone up at least 175% depending on where you purchase them. I quit soaping. I used to pay $35.00 for 50 lb blocks, the last time I looked it was $96 for the 50 lb block where I used to purchase it. It would be getting extremely hard to make any money selling bars of soap at this rate for supplies. It is really sad. So it is not cheap either. Since I am not soaping these days I have not checked my Los Angeles suppliers for bulk Shea but I do know, sadly, many of them went out of business during and after Covid. I used to pay $65-75 for 25-30 lb blocks depending on how much I purchased. Talking about sticker shock today.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I thought that if you're using sunflower oil that has a higher conditioning factor that it might reduce or dilute the harsh cleansing factor of the coconut oil...."

Well, maybe you have a point but kinda not. It's complicated.

Lauric acid soap is the fatty acid in coconut oil that makes coconut oil soap so stripping and drying. The harsh nature of soap high in lauric acid soap is tamed by two things.

The first is by using a large excess of fat or fatty acids. In other words, by using a high % of superfat. The other way is by by dilution, meaning the soap has less of the fats like coconut oil that are rich in lauric acid and more of other fats.

If you play around with soapcalc long enough, you'll find if you raise the conditioning number, the cleansing number inevitably drops.

Cleansing is the combined percentage of lauric and myristic acids. Conditioning is the combined % of unsaturated acids in the recipe -- the oleic, linoleic, linolenic, and ricinoleic acids. If you increase the % of sunflower oil, that means you are raising the oleic and linoleic acid content. If you raise the % of these fatty acids, then that reduces the lauric acid %. It's just the way the math works.

Of all the numbers that soapcalc uses, the "conditioning" number is the most misleading of the bunch, IMO. A high conditioning number doesn't mean the soap is a "conditioning" soap, however you define conditioning. All it means is there's a high combined % of oleic, linoleic, linolenic, and/or ricinoleic acids in the recipe.

For example, a 100% olive oil soap has a high conditioning number ... but a goodly % of people find that type of soap to be harsh and drying. The unsaturated acids make a soap that is highly soluble in water, which can be irritating and drying to some people's skin.

I am not quite sure why the original designers didn't include palmitic and stearic acids in the definition of "conditioning". Fats rich in palmitic and stearic fatty acids include lard, palm, and the nut butters. These fatty acids are only included in the "hardness" calculation in Soapcalc, and I think they contribute as much or more to "conditioning" as they do to physical hardness. I also would have argued for the conditioning number to be called "mildness" or "gentleness" instead, rather than "conditioning."

 

[grrrrr im a bear]

this is a great way to explain that thanks!