Sugar and Aloe and Sorbitol?

[Shirley-D]

Help! Somebody save me from myself!
If all three (sugar, aloe juice, sorbitol) increase lather, can I hit them all up for my soap. Does each one bring something to the table or too much of a good thing since they are all sugars? Or a little of each can work synergistically? Like how much of each? Will they cause a volcano?
I am after more bubbles. So far I have made a soap with 4% TOW table sugar, another with 100% aloe vera juice, and another with 2% TOW sorbitol. Then I braved 1/3 aloe vera juice as part of the lye water along with 3 tsp sugar in 500ml oil. All gave a rich thick lather, very cushiony and creamy, but I want some BUBBLES!
(I am using sort of /mostly/ still deciding 19% cocoanut oil and 7% castor oil, 22% soy wax, 24% olive oil, 23% canola, 5% shea butter, ROE) Should I try to get more palmitic in there? Trying to keep my costs down for my signature basic bar, but I could bring the palmitic up with rice bran oil, avocado, or cocoa butter --no palm or animal products though. So far all the soaps are nice enough and I'm trying to go cautiously here...but I feel another harebrained newbie experiment coming my way.
ETA I use distilled water and Na Gluconate too.

 

[AliOop]

A couple of things to try would be blending CO with PKO, and dual lye (95% NaOH and 5% KOH).

 

[Shirley-D]

Thanks@AliOop,
I'm palm-free but would love to try the dual lye idea. I will have to order even more soapmaking supplies to get the free shipping. Will have to start hiding them from the hubby the way I used to hide yarn.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Trying to keep my costs down for my signature basic bar,

Time to Rewind!
To make a really good signature bar of soap, start with the Basic Trinity of Oils, Olive + Coconut + Shea Butter (sub for palm).

No additives or chelators or sodium lactate/gluconate or whatever. (Exception: Antioxidants ROE and Vitamin E to help fend off rancidity) See how you like it.

If you decide to add castor oil (for bubbles & conditioning), 5% max should do the trick (reduce olive by same amount).

Keep in mind, all the little "tricks" you learn on SMF don't necessarily make a better bar, just different. Most of them work well for a specific issue a member is trying to correct. Good for them but may not be right for your signature bar.

Few newbies understand the importance of fragrance. Fragrance sells! For the amount of time you spend learning various swirt techniques and other methods, you'd be much better off spending the same amount of time, & money!, on finding irresistable fragrances that customers will love and can't live without.

Set your bars apart from the crowd by using signature scents like the unique variety offered by Scent Memory Fragrance.

ETA: I know I'm at risk of sounding like a broken record, and it's surely not for everyone, but I do believe once a customer discovers it, and loves it, they will be back for more. Sellers should carry a ZNSC in their inventory. It's probably the cheapest soap you can make that you can also charge the big bucks for just because people are drawn to "castile soaps", even moreso for the ever popular Melaleuca Castile made with Tea Tree.

 

[dibbles]

I've used sugar with aloe juice before - no drama at all using 1-2 tsp PPO. One thing with your recipe is soy wax and shea butter don't really produce bubbly lather. Have you tried using coconut oil in a little higher percentage? I've not had any complaints about 25% coconut oil from anyone with the exception of my sister who really needs a very mild soap and doesn't care about bubbles. I think there are plenty of us who use coconut oil in the mid 20 range (and even higher) without problems. I too love bubbles!

ETA: have you made a salt bar yet? They need a long cure, but lather like crazy.

 

[Shirley-D]

Oh @Zany_in_CO ! Thank you for keeping my feet on the ground!

I am still searching for my basic bar. I reckon that soap making is like learning a dance...once you know the basic steps then you can improvise to your heart's content. So, I'm going back to basics with the trinity--Olive, coconut, and shea.
I was aiming to get my tried-and-true basic bar that I could tweak (improvise) for certain needs. Then I was going to trawl the fragrance area to get to the bottom of my fragrance issues. I get it that the fragrances draw people in. After spending a small fortune on fragrances, I am repeatedly disappointed. I have narrowed it to down to three that I love and trust. Otherwise, it is hit and miss, mostly miss. Can I be the only one who thinks WSP's Love Spell smells like a cheap orange lollipop? And the ever-popular Black Raspberry Vanilla is pleasant till I get a chemical-like whiff up close? I have never thought I had a discerning nose, but now I wonder. I will definitely be checking out Scent Memory Fragrance. Thanks for the referral because I had not heard of them before. I did some colored layers but am not up to swirls yet, not till I master my basic bar and fragrance choices.

Just this week I made the faux seawater. It is in a mason jar waiting for me to make the famous ZNSC. I am going to make it. I had made regular castile for a friend with psoriasis. She loves it and it is all she wants. I give her 2 bars at a time so she can alternate them each day to prevent the sliminess. I think she will love ZNSC. Just this week I made the faux seawater. It is in a mason jar waiting for me to make the famous ZNSC. I am going to make it.
.................................
Husband: Oh hey, what are you cooking, hon?
Me: I'm making Zany's faux sea water.
Husband: Duh!

 

[Shirley-D]

Hi @dibbles, thanks for your reply. Glad to hear there is no drama with the aloe and sugar together.
I did start with 30% coconut oil and found it quite a bit drying for me personally. I have been making a pound of soap each week to tweak my recipe. I have gradually brought the coconut oil down to 19% and I like it there. I feel that it could go down to 17% or 18% and still I'd like it. But I want other people to like and use it too. It is dawning on me that I should use a castile for myself, like your sister. I have a small army of very willing guinea pigs who love getting free soap to try out. They don't hold back with their opinions either and I'm grateful for the honest feedback. I make tweaks and don't tell them what I have done so they are not influenced. It seems that none of them are bothered by a higher coconut oil. I might go back to 21% or 22% because after that I started to lose my abundant bubbles. I feel I need the soy wax, at least a little bit for longevity. My area has such horrible water that nearly everyone here has a water softener, and it just melts away the soap.
Salt bars? I have heard them mentioned, but where have I been that I don't even know what they are I will have to educate myself!
Many thanks for the suggestions. I might have to go back up a bit on the coconut oil.

 

[dibbles]

@Shirley-D, if higher coconut is drying for you, you need to make the type of soap that will work for your skin. Bubbles are fun, but at the end of the day you want to feel comfortable in your own skin (see what I did there?). Trying to make a vegan and palm free soap is tricky. You do need soy wax and/or butters for the hardness. You will find your perfect for you soap. FWIW, even 20% coconut oil gives me pretty bubbly lather.

I did a very small, very unscientific test because my water is softened and pretty much everything will lather well. I wanted to see what other types of water did with the same soaps and sent a few out to some willing members here. Link to my post about that.

These might also be of interest for you.
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/lather-lovers-additive-testinghttps://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/updated-lather-lovers-additive-testing
ETA: You will find a lot of information about salt bars doing a search. My favorite is 85% coconut oil, 10% avocado (or any oil of choice), 5% castor, 18% SF and 50% of oil weight in fine sea salt.

 

[KiwiMoose]

My high superfat, high CO salt bars still only produced a creamy, lotion-ey lather rather than a bubbly one.
Have you tried lowering your superfat on your regular recipe to 2 or 3%?

 

[dibbles]

My high superfat, high CO salt bars still only produced a creamy, lotion-ey lather rather than a bubbly one.
Have you tried lowering your superfat on your regular recipe to 2 or 3%?

I wonder why - I get big fluffy lather from salt bars.

 

[cmzaha]

My go to was the dual lye with 1.1% Sorbitrol based on total batch weight with ETDA/SG combination at .5% each. My two recipes were one containing 40% Palm (vegan) and my non-vegan was 40/20 Tallow/lard with 17% PKO/CO split.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I wonder why - I get big fluffy lather from salt bars.

They were well aged by the time I used them - ab out a year. Does that make a difference? I didn't like them much so haven't made them again.

 

[dibbles]

@KiwiMoose No, at a year they should be great. I start using mine around the 7 month old time. The oldest I've had is about 3 years I think. I'm sorry you don't like them, salt bars are one of my favorites.

 

[AliOop]

My high superfat, high CO salt bars still only produced a creamy, lotion-ey lather rather than a bubbly one.
Have you tried lowering your superfat on your regular recipe to 2 or 3%?

You said "high CO" - have you tried 100% CO?

 

[Shirley-D]

Have you tried lowering your superfat on your regular recipe to 2 or 3%?

Hi @KiwiMoose, Yes, recently. I lowered the SF to 3% then 2%. I did that because my number 1 guinea pig (the husband) complained the soap was sort of hard to rinse off, said he felt slick from the soap and had to rinse more. I am not sure that is a bad thing, but maybe it has something to do with why the lather was not more profuse...too much heavy butter/soy wax? Maybe needs more coconut after all? Very soft water? My recipes have been all over the place. I lowered the SF to see what would happen, hoping I would get more bubbles too. It's a bit too early to use those bars yet.

@dibbles Thanks for the links. I have tried to look at that post of yours before, but the page always misbehaves. I can't see the pictures but can read the comments. The other links were great. It seems all the soaps gave a respectable lather. But interestingly, all Kenna's older soaps gave a less bubbly, more lotion-like lather. I'm begining to think I should let go of this bubble obsession before I drive myself crazy. I have spent a fortune on GW415, mango seed butter, shea butter, cocoa butter, Steric acid, aloe juice, sorbitol, and much more, and even found true 100% hydrogenated soy wax. I don't want to know how many hours I spent on the soap calculator, LOL!

I am going back to basics as @Zany_in_CO suggested. I will mostly use Costco oils. Their olive, avocado, canola, and coconut oils are reasonably priced. No shipping fees because I live 15 minutes away and go there every two weeks anyway.

@cmzaha thanks for your reply. I will try dual lye in the future after I get my basic signature bar worked out. It seems like a simple solution... no extra chemicals or exotic crap butters.

YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Yes but bear in mind that my menfolk always whine about the "awful softening/moisturizing feel" of my soap, because they are used to stripping commercial soap that makes their skin feel dry. Ya can't win I tell ya!

 

[KiwiMoose]

You said "high CO" - have you tried 100% CO?

It was 75%, have not tried 100%

 

[earlene]

Hi @KiwiMoose, Yes, recently. I lowered the SF to 3% then 2%. I did that because my number 1 guinea pig (the husband) complained the soap was sort of hard to rinse off, said he felt slick from the soap and had to rinse more. I am not sure that is a bad thing, but maybe it has something to do with why the lather was not more profuse...too much heavy butter/soy wax? Maybe needs more coconut after all? Very soft water? My recipes have been all over the place. I lowered the SF to see what would happen, hoping I would get more bubbles too. It's a bit too early to use those bars yet.

In my experience softened water causes the feeling that soap is hard to rinse off. I notice it quite markedly when the water softener runs a fresh cycle, but not so much a few days later. I believe it is because there are still a lot of salt ions floating in the water (or whatever it is in the water softener salt that remains in the water when the salt is first added to the tank).

This has been my experience many times and with the exact same soap. Since your hubby is experiencing that same hard-to-rinse off phenomena all the time, perhaps it is your water. Or perhaps there is an ingredient in your soap that facilitates softening of the water even further. Sodium gluconate softens water. Perhaps you could slightly decrease the amount of Na gluconate and see if that makes a difference for him.

Yes but bear in mind that my menfolk always whine about the "awful softening/moisturizing feel" of my soap, because they are used to stripping commercial soap that makes their skin feel dry. Ya can't win I tell ya!

The nature of the beast.

I don't think it's as much about being used to commercial soap that makes their skin feel dry (or not moisturized) as it is about the fact that men store fat differently than women. Men have about 50% less subcutaneous fat than women. Besides storing fat differently, males also metabolize fat a bit differently as well. Additionally, testosterone thickens skin, so male skin is somewhat thicker than female skin (generally about 20-25% thicker).

Perhaps these are some reasons why your menfolk don't feel the same soap the same way that your womenfolk experience the same soap. It would be interesting to learn how a person undergoing hormonal therapy responds to the skin changes and their experience with soap, but of course that is a whole other topic, probably not suited for this thread.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I am going back to basics as @Zany_in_CO suggested. I will mostly use Costco oils. Their olive, avocado, canola, and coconut oils are reasonably priced. No shipping fees because I live 15 minutes away and go there every two weeks anyway.

Inspiration: Dr. Squatsch Soap Recipe

 

[KiwiMoose]

The nature of the beast.

ain't that the truth!