Strong Ammonia smell

[Bebbaloo]

I am attempting to make my first batch of liquid soap. First time using Potassium Hydroxide. I'm doing the no paste method. 75% coconut oil with olive and castor oils. The instructions said to wait until the oil/lye mixture reached 160 degrees before stick blending. It was in a crockpot, so that took some time to get it hot enough. Once it did, it got very hot very fast. It seems like some started to saponify before I started stick blending and then I just never could get it to all emulsify, I added more castor a few oz at a time to try and hep it! I finally just added the water discount and it did emulsify after that. But my nose has been burning from the ammonia from the get go, can't get it to go clear and I cooked it for HOURS. This morning I added a lot of water because it was thick and now it is starting to clear up, but it is very thin and still smells strong of ammonia and when I test it with phenolphthalein, it is still alkaline heavy. I read the troubleshooting and it just says to keep cooking? But the ammonia smell is giving me a headache. I wondered if it was the batch of lye I used, as I have checked and re-checked that I added everything correctly. Is this batch saveable or should I start over? I used this recipe and process below.

 

[shunt2011]

You're going to need to post your entire recipe and process in order to help you out. Adding more oils isn't going to make it better. Also, sounds way too hot.

 

[Bebbaloo]

Thank you! I edited and included the recipe

 

[DeeAnna]

"I just never could get it to all emulsify, I added more castor a few oz at a time to try and hep it! I finally just added the water discount ..."

Why did you add more oil to the batch? Is this extra castor called for in the recipe? (I have not taken the time to watch the video.) If not, you really shouldn't add more oil. That's true with solid (NaOH) soap and even more true with liquid soap.

What do you mean when you say you "just added the water discount"? I have no idea what you mean by that. Please explain.

If you are following the recipe as shown, you have not used any ingredient that would produce ammonia. I'm not saying you aren't feeling what you're feeling, but it cannot be ammonia.

If you'd asked us for advice before starting to make liquid soap, I would have suggested you try a more basic paste-type recipe first and then worked up to a "no paste" version after you had a better understanding of how making liquid soap should work. You're trying to ride a motorcycle when you haven't really graduated from a training-wheel bicycle.

Also, this recipe makes A LOT of liquid soap. Way too much for a first time recipe. Try a smaller batch first so if the batch doesn't work out, you have to fix or discard less material. A batch with 300 grams of fats (10 ounces, more or less) is plenty big enough.

 

[Bebbaloo]

"I just never could get it to all emulsify, I added more castor a few oz at a time to try and hep it! I finally just added the water discount ..."

Why did you add more oil to the batch? Is this extra castor called for in the recipe? (I have not taken the time to watch the video.) If not, you really shouldn't add more oil. That's true with solid (NaOH) soap and even more true with liquid soap.

What do you mean when you say you "just added the water discount"? I have no idea what you mean by that. Please explain.



Thank you for your response, I have made cold process bar soap for years, watched a lot of videos, read a book, and from what I read, a no paste method was supposed to be easier, so I was overconfident that I was ready. I will include a picture of the troubleshooting method I was using when I added the castor oil. And when I say I just "added the water discount" I meant to say, the dilution water. Sorry about that. I just thought I'd try that and see if it emulsified. I've never been to or used this forum before, I discovered it after yesterday's fiasco. I sure wish I had come here first!

As far as the smell, a very strong cleaning ammonia smell. I noticed a "lemony" smell right from the get go, and it got stronger and stronger. Smells like a strong cleaner whenenver I'm trying to cook this batch. Burns the nostrils. My husband and son agree.

 

[DeeAnna]

Ammonia comes from nitrogen containing compounds. The ingredients in your recipe -- fats, water, KOH, glycerin, and potassium carbonate -- don't contain nitrogen. So it's not ammonia, but obviously something is causing a strong, irritating odor. The only thing I can think of that might explain the awful smell is this --

Glycerin can decompose (break down) if you heat it high enough and long enough. When it decomposes, it forms various chemicals, including one called acrolein.

There is plenty of glycerin in soap whether you add extra or not, but normally this glycerin doesn't decompose at the temperatures normally used to make soap. You said you cooked the soap for a long time, however. You also mentioned 160 F and thought the batter might have gotten hotter yet.

I'm operating on only a few sketchy clues here and could easily be wrong, but I'm thinking the culprit might be acrolein created from overheated glycerin.

Acrolein is extremely volatile (evaporates easily), has a very strong, irritating odor, and is toxic. Only a few drops can drive everyone out of a room. It's found in trace amounts in many cooked foods, but only in tiny amounts. When you smell deep fat fryer oil that's been heated too long and gets a strong, sour "overheated" smell, the odd odor is due to acrolein.

Liquid soap will never smell like acrolein if made properly. Unless you can think of another more-benign chemical compound that would cause this odor, I'd assume it's acrolein. The soap needs to be discarded.

As far as the no-paste method as taught by Jackie Thompson, there are not many folks here who use it, so you might not get detailed advice here if you have questions about this process. Is there a Facebook or other online group where you can get support for this method of liquid soap making? If you want to try the paste method, however, there are several experienced LS makers here who give good advice.

more about acrolein -- Acrolein

 

[Bebbaloo]

Very helpful! Thank you! My batch went from 160 to 215 degrees in a matter of 1 or two minutes in the crockpot! Even after turning it off, I couldn’t get it to cool down. I’m not leaning towards a no paste way, I just mistakenly thought it was better to start with. I’m definitely going to try a paste method next! Is there a particular reason why most people don’t use that method? I’d love to learn! I didn’t get much help in my fb soap makers page. Acrolein may be the culprit! I’m going to read up on that! I just want to know what went wrong so I can learn from it and your reply helped greatly!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Is there a particular reason why most people don’t use that method? ..."

Partly because Jackie's book as well as Catherine Failor's books about this method must be purchased. Out of loyalty to Thompson and Failor, few people are willing to talk publicly about this method, so it's either buy the book(s) or pick up a crumb here and there. A few, like Cathy of Soaping 101, typically give a basic recipe and a demonstration, but don't offer much more than that.

No-paste liquid soap making (and to some extent cream soap making, which is also shrouded in mystery) is currently at the stage that regular bar soap making was back in my grandma's day -- there a few recipes and a few hints in the common knowledge, but not much of substance and science.

Even the paste method of liquid soap making was pretty esoteric stuff until a few years ago when soap makers on the now defunct The Dish forum went public with their discussions about ways to make this soap and the chemistry involved. Due to this evolution, the paste technique of liquid soap making, at least here on SMF, is alive and well.

 

[Bebbaloo]

Gotcha. I’ll do more studying before attempting my next batch!

 

[Bebbaloo]

Just a follow up. I attempted my second batch of liquid soap and it turned out beautifully! 100% castille, using the glycerin method. AND I figured out what happened to my first attempt above.
The bottle of “glycerin” I used, the label had fallen off a while ago. But I knew it was glycerin (or what I used in place of glycerin in some of my lotion recipes). But unfortunately (and dangerously) it was NOT glycerin. It was Luxglide N5.

This was why such a strong chemical smell and I’m just so glad I didn’t hurt my family in the process!

It was irresponsible of me to use a bottle which the label had fallen off and assuming I knew what was in it. But here is the newest result!

 

[Susie]

May I add that you can test liquid soap with phenolpthalein from now to New Year's, and if it is made properly, it will almost inevitably show up pink? And judging a soap by clarity is also going to waste your time and a lot of ingredients. Clarity has more to do with which oils were used than whether it is "done" or not. Zap test your paste, and save yourself a lot of time and aggravation.

 

[Bebbaloo]

Susie, I learned that as well! I have the powder, could never really get it diluted to 1% drops, and never tested without some pink. So I did the zap test instead and ZERO zap. I felt okay about that. Thank you for the tip. I feel better about bypassing the phenolpthalein test.