Stearic Acid - Does it make the soap milder?

[ShRivver]

I've read that olive oil makes the most mild soap-- do you think it is because the Oleic acid content in the oil makes it that way? I am trying to make saddle soap with walnut oil and it is simply too harsh and keeps taking dye off with it when I use it. I've tried it with 10% superfat, and 1% superfat, and both times the soap takes dye with it...

I may have to use a different base - but I wonder if there is something I can add to make it milder on the leather dye.

Suggestions?

 

[LuckyStar]

Olive oil is mostly oleic with a bit of palmitic and linoleic thrown in there, not a lot of stearic going on.

What was the recipe that was taking dye off? All you mentioned was walnut oil, which is a really gentle oil in my experience

 

[DeeAnna]

What is your thinking about saddle soap -- specifically, what research have you done to create a recipe to make this type of product?

Lucky Star is right about the stearic content of olive oil. What has led you to think olive has a significant amount of stearic in it? Have you checked out SoapCalc to see how it can help you learn about the fats and oils used in soap making?

I'm not trying to "needle" you -- I'm trying to get you to think about this project in a more productive way....

 

[ShRivver]

to Deanna: "I'm not trying to "needle" you -- I'm trying to get you to think about this project in a more productive way....'
What would give you the idea that I have not been thinking in a productive way? Obviously, you knew it was offensive or you wouldn't have apologized for its "needling" quality before you typed it. It doesn't set well that you'd be so offensive to a newcomer to your group.

to Lucky Star, and everyone else:
My middle of the night post mistake, I meant Oleic. here is my content reference: from summerbeemeadow.com

Walnut Oil
Linoleic 51-55%
Oleic 28%
Palmitic 11%
Stearic 5%
Alpha Linoleic 5%


Olive Oil
Oleic 63-81%
Palmitic 7-14%
Linoleic 5-15%
Stearic 3-5%

There is a greater amount of oleic acid in Olive Oil, and a greater amount of linoleic acid in Walnut oil.

The other ingredients are lanolin and beeswax. - 24 parts walnut oil to 8 parts lanolin to 2 parts beeswax, I realize that lanolin does not saponify much, or at all; but it is good for the leather, and even though I may change the amount in the recipe, I still intend to have it in there. Same for the beeswax.

the first recipe I made with a woman who liked to "eye" the measurments and was not accurate at all. I discount that recipe altogether.
the second recipe (from the recipe generator at summermeadowbee.com)I did with 10% superfat. Left too much oil on the leather -- seemed to dull it andmade it feel heavy and unmoving.
I consulted another soap maker who said that perhaps the dyes are oil based and the extra oils in the soap would blend with it and take it off with the removal of the soap... so I dropped the superfat to next to none...
the third recipe I've done with 1% superfat. Leaves a good amount of conditioner, doesn't feel heavy or built up and isn't dull; but it still seems to take quite a bit of dye with it on furniture leather and dyed deer skin.

Though this week I tried a commercial saddle soap and it, too, took the dye off the leather. Maybe it is that kind of leather that just doesn't hold its dye...

Also, although there was dye on the cloth after using it; it did not strip any specific area. It seems to have simply brightened the entire pelt. My soap's finish was superior to the commercial brand. I am purchasing a different brand of saddle soap to test, today. I will post its results compared to my own.

PS I changed my original question to reflect Oleic content -

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Before I read the bulk of your post, I will say that DeeAnna is very experienced and well thought of. She generally doesn't reply if it is likely to be confrontational and I take her comment as a pre-cursor to the response that we see often where people take offense at offered help, becuase it doesn't sit with them at all well. Her methods are very logical and her results are generally without question. To cut her out of a discussion like this is like leaving your best horse in the stable when you go to the Kentucky, as Bones might say. I hope she doesn't mind me speaking for her on this, but when I see such a misunderstanding of someone's character, I can't ignore it at all. DeeAnna has a superhero cape as far as I am concerned - not blowing smoke, it is just fact.

We can assume that your thought process has not been productive as the product is not working as you want it to. You can be offended by that if you like, but it is the plain truth and I mean no disrespect at all. The sooner we leave our feelings out of feedback the sooner we can get to results. Getting your thought process productive is why you came here - if you want to keep thinking how you have been, you will get the same (failed) results. Is that actually what you want?

Now to your soaping problem. Have you considered splitting the two parts out - a cleanser and a moisturiser? I make a simple leather balm for my shoes. It doesn't clean, just feeds and protects the leather. As the commercial products also stripped the dye, is that something common to cleaning leather saddles? If so, a mild cleanser (like the one that had the best results for you) followed by a leather treatment might well do the trick.

It's strange, I never thought of actually cleaning the leather like that. Do you have to do it often, or only when it is noticable grimey?

 

[Dorymae]

I have to agree with The Efficacious Gentleman with regards to DeeAnna.

First understand that when you are new no one here has any idea how long or how much you know or understand about soaping. There have been situations where you assume someone has some knowledge only to find they have none and no idea what you are trying to tell them.

Since making a soap for a specific purpose, like saddle soap, would take more than a bit of research and an understanding of oils, wax, and additives, I believe she was simply trying to gauge your knowledge without saying, " Hey, how much experience do you have, and do you understand what you are working with?" (which is how someone like me, with NO tact, would ask...)

All of that aside, DeeAnna is one of the most knowledgeable resources we have here when it comes to the technical or scientific side of soaping. When most of us, who have been soaping for years, have a question - we HOPE DeeAnna will pop in with some advice!

Don't judge any of us too harshly - you have to understand that until you've been here a while no one has any idea what you've done or haven't done. Sometimes that makes a world of difference as to the answer you will receive.

 

[houseofwool]

Another piece of the puzzle is that Deanna is an experienced leather worker, so on both fronts, I would assume she is knowledgable.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with the others. DeeAnna is one of the most knowledgable detailed and helpful folks here. Though there are many helpful smart folks here. Your taking offence when she was just trying to gauge your knowledge level was really quite uncalled for in my opinion. Much more so than what DeeAnna was asking of you. I wouldn't burn bridges when you are new here. I agreem with Effy on finding something to clean and then to condition. You may need to do many different recipes until you find just the right one. Kind of like most of us and finding just the right combinations for our soaps that we make and in many cases sell. It's constantly a work in process. Good luck to you!

 

[Seawolfe]

Wow, DeeAnna is like the one person here who knows the most about leather, and she is a brilliant soaper. She was asking you those questions as a teacher would - basically with Socratic questions.

The last time I cleaned my saddle, I used Murphys oil soap. Its a liquid soap and its ingredient list has sodium tallate in it - so tallow, I'd go with beef tallow.
(see how I showed my way of thinking?, its more productive that way

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks all for the support. I was not trying to be confrontational nor rude, which is why I qualified my comments in my first post with an explanation that I was not trying to needle the OP, just asking the OP to research what is actually in a proper saddle soap.

"...I am trying to make saddle soap with walnut oil and it is simply too harsh and keeps taking dye off with it when I use it...."

Saddle soap, as a product, is formulated to do two things -- clean and condition -- in one fell swoop. A proper saddle soap is not just about the superfat or the base oils used to make the soap. A nice tallow soap is a traditional base for saddle soap, for example, but a lard or olive oil soap would work fine too. But the soap is just part of the formulation. Fats have to be blended in to the soap (over and above the superfat) to add the conditioning part of the equation.

That's why you are not getting the results you want -- you are just using plain soap and are not including the rest of the ingredients that provide conditioning properties required of a saddle soap.

I'm all about teaching someone to fish -- I'm hoping I can get you to try a bit more research into your project so you can formulate a nice product. Read the ingredients list on saddle soaps you like to learn more about what's in the commercial products. Check the internet for other people's attempts to formulate saddle soap. Whatever works for you.

edit -- ...And in a re-read of the posts here, it sounds like you are doing your homework on what makes a decent saddle soap. Good work!

On a related note, some leathers do have fugitive dyes that come off easily -- cheap saddles, harness, and tack made in India and Pakistan are notable for leather dyes that come off easily and for stretchy, porous water buffalo leather that doesn't hold color well. Using soap or saddle soap can be a disaster with these leathers.

An "oil based" dye of good quality should be "fast" (permanent), however. I use this type of dye all the time in my leather business -- going on 13 years. Particles of the dye left on the surface of the leather will come off when new, but after a short time of normal use, these particles are removed and the remaining dye will be "fast".

I would question the use of beeswax in a saddle soap formulation. It doesn't saponify much and will tend to smooth and slick the surface of the leather more than one might like, just like a beeswax furniture polish does. While this might be nice on shoes or a handbag, it might be objectionable if the product is used on a saddle or sofa.

 

[Lindy]

I agree with the lanolin being in there and I expect it is the beeswax giving you the shine. Have you used your saddle since the cleaning? If the commercial one also removes dye then I would think there is nothing wrong with your recipe. How new is the saddle? When they are really new and this is the first or second cleaning you can expect to see some dye left on the cloth. As it ages it becomes more supple and you're down to the true dyed leather. It's like when you first buy something new and you wash it for the first time, it may not be colour stable and a lot comes out in the wash but the majority of the colour remains. This is usually caused by over dying. I make leather purses, wallets and other products and I know from experience that unless I do a nice burnishing I can end up with too much dye on the product.

Good luck to you...

 

[DeeAnna]

The OP never said she/he was using the product on a saddle, but I agree with your observations, Lindy. All true in my experience as well. Good points.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The OP never said she/he was using the product on a saddle.

Ah, I also made that assumption because they mentioned "Saddle Soap". Is it just a generic term for leather soap, rather than just for saddles?

 

[Lindy]

Because I've had horses when I hear saddle soap I automatically think saddles ... I suppose you could use it on other leather products but they don't usually need cleaning...

 

[DeeAnna]

You nailed it, Gent. It has been traditionally used on saddlery and harness, but saddle soap can be used on any "hard" finished leather. It's not to be used on any leather with a sueded or "peached" finish.

In my experience saddle soap tries to do two jobs -- cleaning and conditioning -- and ends up doing neither very well. It's kind of like those hair shampoos that are touted to "clean and condition" all in one. Also any saddle soap residues left in crevices and stitch lines will often cause mildew, due to the high fat content in the residues and the difficulty in removing all the soap lather from those areas. But that's just my opinion, not gospel truth -- other folks swear by the stuff.

 

[Lindy]

I always used it on my saddles and loved how it left my saddle feeling. I think because it is a saddle and used outdoors so much there is less chance of mildew occurring on it where I can see it happening with a purse let's say....

 

[green soap]

I know nothing about saddles but here is a little help formulating soap and understanding soap's ability to clean and its 'harshness'.

Fatty acids can be saturated, mono unsaturated or polyunsaturated, but they also have different length carbon chains.

fatty acid ----- number of carbons

Lauric ----- 12
myristic ---- 14
palmitic ---- 16
stearic ---- 18

All of the above are saturated, which means that there are no double bonds available to react with other molecules. Physically, this means the fatty acid molecules are 'rigid' instead of 'floppy' like the unsaturated fatty acid. This makes them solid at room temperature and if used in soap they will contribute to the hardness of the bar. The saturated/unsaturated character does not make much difference in the cleansing qualities of the soap, but the length of the carbon chains does.

Soap molecules have a hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. This means one end is attracted to water, one end is the opposite, repelled by water but attracted by oil. The way soap works is by forming 'micelles'. In a micelle a whole collection of soap molecules will surround a fat or oil globule with their fat attracting side touching the oil and their hydrophilic side touching the water.

In any case, the shorter chained fatty acid soaps like lauric (50% of coconut oil is lauric) will be a lot more effective and efficient on this 'micelle' action and will be a more cleansing soap, able to remove grease from your pan or your hands a lot more effectively. This also makes them harsher on your skin (should we assume also the leather? I would think so).

So if you could make a soap that was all stearic, or all palmitic, they would both have the same hardness, but the palmitic one will be more cleansing, but not nearly as cleansing as an all lauric acid soap would be.

For a better understanding of this I encourage you to use the google image feature and look up words like 'micelles' molecular structures stearic acid, and words like that. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say. There are some great pictures of molecular structures in different styles.

Now there is another important property that we want in soap, and this is longevity. This is where the saturated/monounsaturated/polyunsaturated concepts come in. The more unsaturated a fatty acid is, the more likely it is to go rancid since it has a greater ability to react with whatever (oxygen, heavy metals, etc).

So a soap made 100% with walnut oil will have a shorter shelf life than one made 100% with olive oil, this is because walnut has so much linoleic and linolenic fatty acids. The mildness or gentleness will be similar, so you are better off formulating with the longest molecular chains (oleic is the same length as stearic and linoleic as well as linolenic) but stay away from the polyunsaturates for the sake of a longer shelf life.

So unless you plan to use your saddle soap really fast, I recommend staying away from walnut oil. Olive oil is a better choice here. I know nothing about specific additives for saddle soap, so this explanation is for soap in general, and you need to research what else to add to your saddle soap to make it more conditioning.

Let us know how it goes and what you come up with! and good luck to you.

 

[DeeAnna]

Part of it is using the product in a way that works best in the long run, and it sounds like you know how to use it properly, Lindy. Apply sparingly, rub thoroughly but gently, avoid packing the lather into crevices and stitch lines, and wipe off well. Saddle soap isn't generally a problem for tack that is used a lot, because any excess tends to get rubbed off from simple use.

"Dipping" harness is another pet peeve of mine, and for much the same reason I don't like saddle soap -- it's not always done properly. Dipping is the practice of dunking an entire harness into a big tub of neatsfoot oil. If one is going to dip a harness, it should be clean, it should only be dipped for a few seconds, and it should be wiped down really well immediately after dipping.

Most people dip their harness, dirt and all, and leave it there for as long as it takes "until the bubbles stop coming up". Ugh, ugh, ugh. It's a great recipe for mildewy, limp leather that collects even more dirt after dipping, deteriorated stitching, and damage to internal padding and reinforcement.

But I digress. Here's a post that reinforces Green Soap's contribution: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=383997&postcount=17

 

[Lindy]

Green Soap I have to admit my eyes crossed on your post.... science always make my eyes cross :shock:

DeeAnna I absolutely agree there are people who have no idea how to properly take care of their tack and end up ruining it.....

 

[cpacamper]

Bravo on turning an uncomfortable beginning to a FASCINATING diacussion this weird lurker shaving dude enjoys throughly.