SP CO soap at 20%?

[Shaylyn Valdez]

Hello, I’ve had this itching question on my mind that I’d like explained to me so I know more.

I’ve seen many times that no matter what you put into your soap or superfat at, your soap will never be “moisturizing” but rather gentler instead. My question is: Why do people superfat their CO soaps at 20% to counteract dryness if it doesn’t moisturize or leave any oils behind? I know that superfatting definitely does counteract the dryness and that it makes for a gentler soap, but I just want to know WHY it’s gentler.

I’ve seen others saying that using expensive oils doesn’t do anything since the benefits of such oils are destroyed in the soapmaking process and that a superfat of such oils wouldn’t do anything either since it’s washed away anyways, but I also see people say that some special butters like mango can give your soap a special feel and leave your hands feeling soft but.. I don’t understand how that could be if it’s true that any benefits are gone and washed off.

Another wonder of mine is this: Does this apply to hot process too? Will adding oils after the cook to superfat add any benefits since the oils and butters aren’t destroyed by the sopanification process? Or is it the same as CP? I know that you do wash these oils off but surely not ALL of the oil is washed of completely? And if it is completely washed off then why do some choose to HP so they can control what oil is their superfat if it doesn’t really give you much benefit anyways since it’s washed off?

Thank you for any responses and please keep in mind that I’m asking this with the intent of learning more so I have the correct information because it was something that was confusing to me. I hope it makes sense.

 

[DeeAnna]

Using 15-20% superfat in a high- or all-coconut oil soap is the same as as throwing a steak to a hungry dog so he doesn't attack you. Superfat emulsifies with this strongly cleansing soap so the soap will emulsify less of the natural fats on your skin. When I've washed with a CO soap with 20% superfat, I certainly get clean but I don't get the sense that any extra fat remains on my skin.

In less aggressive soaps, I suppose here may be a tiny amount of fat left on your skin from the superfat, but it's going to be a tiny amount unless you decide to use such a huge superfat that the soap functions more like a lotion than a cleanser.

If you read the discussions about emulsifying scrubs here, you'll learn that these products contain a lot of fat and a small amount of an emulsifier. Adding more emulsifier in proportion to the fat increases the "wash off" of the fats. With enough emulsifier added, your skin will feel neutral and clean, maybe even a bit dry depending on the emulsifier and your skin. Add less and less emulsifier and you'll find increasingly more fat remains on the skin. When the emulsifier content gets too low, a visible coating of fat will remain on the skin because there's not enough emulsifier to make the fat sufficiently water soluble. Somewhere in the middle of these extremes, the right amount of emulsifier leaves the skin very lightly coated with an invisible layer of fat, and the skin feels moist and softened, but not greasy.

That's what I think people often expect to get by adding more and more superfat to their soap. To get a moist and soft skin feel, you're going to have to add enough superfat that the soap can no longer fully emulsify all the fat, just like how the emulsifying scrub functions. That means it also won't do as good a job of emulsifying greasy dirt so the dirt can be rinsed off reasonably easily.

That said, I suppose soap can be used as a moisturizer if the recipe is sufficiently modified, as witness another current thread where the OP describes making soap with about half the NaOH as calculated by Soapcalc -- in other words, the soap contains a superfat of around 50%. That much superfat apparently does leave a perceptible film of fat on the skin after bathing, according to the OP. So, yeah, I suppose soap-as-moisturizer is technically feasible, but is it a cleanser anymore? Whether this is desirable or not is definitely YMMV.

***

Whether an exotic oil makes you feel luxuriously "moisturized" more than a common fat is another thing you will have to decide. I personally think the claims about the benefits of various exotic fats or other amazing additives are mostly wishful thinking. Blind trials don't do a reliable job of backing up the testimonials of people who know what's in the soap they're bathing with. Again, YMMV.

 

[amd]

Here's my take on your questions:

My question is: Why do people superfat their CO soaps at 20% to counteract dryness if it doesn’t moisturize or leave any oils behind?

CO Soap is very cleansing, however CO Oil when used by itself is known to be a beneficial moisturizer. Leaving a greater portion of the CO Oil unsaponified reduces the cleansing effect of the CO Soap.

using expensive oils doesn’t do anything since the benefits of such oils are destroyed in the soapmaking process and that a superfat of such oils wouldn’t do anything either since it’s washed away anyways, but I also see people say that some special butters like mango can give your soap a special feel and leave your hands feeling soft but.. I don’t understand how that could be if it’s true that any benefits are gone and washed off.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, as it is a personal decision. I think if you want to use something like jojoba oil or argan oil in your personal soaps go for it. For makers who sell, they usually understand oil properties better and can formulate a recipe that will have the same affect as soap made with expensive oils at a much lower price point. As a buyer, I choose not to buy soaps with high end oils because I do not want to spend that money on a wash off product. I'd rather buy the oils themselves and/or use in a leave on product. Using special butters may have more affect to reducing the cleansing feel of the soap due to the amount of beneficial unsaponifiables found in those soaps.

Does this apply to hot process too? Will adding oils after the cook to superfat add any benefits since the oils and butters aren’t destroyed by the sopanification process? Or is it the same as CP? I know that you do wash these oils off but surely not ALL of the oil is washed of completely? And if it is completely washed off then why do some choose to HP so they can control what oil is their superfat if it doesn’t really give you much benefit anyways since it’s washed off?

I think HP soaps are a bit special - adding the superfat after the cook probably does bring more to the soap than using a calculated lye discount (which is how I made my HP for the few batches I did). I think what you use to superfat in that case will affect the feel of the soap while using. I still wouldn't use high end oils to superfat though

 

[Shaylyn Valdez]

Using 15-20% superfat in a high- or all-coconut oil soap is the same as as throwing a steak to a hungry dog so he doesn't attack you. Superfat emulsifies with this strongly cleansing soap so the soap will emulsify less of the natural fats on your skin. When I've washed with a CO soap with 20% superfat, I certainly get clean but I don't get the sense that any extra fat remains on my skin.

In less aggressive soaps, I suppose here may be a tiny amount of fat left on your skin from the superfat, but it's going to be a tiny amount unless you decide to use such a huge superfat that the soap functions more like a lotion than a cleanser.

If you read the discussions about emulsifying scrubs here, you'll learn that these products contain a lot of fat and a small amount of an emulsifier. Adding more emulsifier in proportion to the fat increases the "wash off" of the fats. With enough emulsifier added, your skin will feel neutral and clean, maybe even a bit dry depending on the emulsifier and your skin. Add less and less emulsifier and you'll find increasingly more fat remains on the skin. When the emulsifier content gets too low, a visible coating of fat will remain on the skin because there's not enough emulsifier to make the fat sufficiently water soluble. Somewhere in the middle of these extremes, the right amount of emulsifier leaves the skin very lightly coated with an invisible layer of fat, and the skin feels moist and softened, but not greasy.

That's what I think people often expect to get by adding more and more superfat to their soap. To get a moist and soft skin feel, you're going to have to add enough superfat that the soap can no longer fully emulsify all the fat, just like how the emulsifying scrub functions. That means it also won't do as good a job of emulsifying greasy dirt so the dirt can be rinsed off reasonably easily.

That said, I suppose soap can be used as a moisturizer if the recipe is sufficiently modified, as witness another current thread where the OP describes making soap with about half the NaOH as calculated by Soapcalc -- in other words, the soap contains a superfat of around 50%. That much superfat apparently does leave a perceptible film of fat on the skin after bathing, according to the OP. So, yeah, I suppose soap-as-moisturizer is technically feasible, but is it a cleanser anymore? Whether this is desirable or not is definitely YMMV.

***

Whether an exotic oil makes you feel luxuriously "moisturized" more than a common fat is another thing you will have to decide. I personally think the claims about the benefits of various exotic fats or other amazing additives are mostly wishful thinking. Blind trials don't do a reliable job of backing up the testimonials of people who know what's in the soap they're bathing with. Again, YMMV.

Extremely interesting! So does that mean that the more superfat you have the less cleansing it will be because the oils that are mostly being removed are the superfatted ones, rather than the ones on your hands? If so, does that mean that there will be more dirt and grime left on your hands with say a 50% SP than a 5% superfat? It’s all very interesting so I’d love to come to the best understanding! If this is wrong then please correct me but so far I love what I’m learning!

Here's my take on your questions:

CO Soap is very cleansing, however CO Oil when used by itself is known to be a beneficial moisturizer. Leaving a greater portion of the CO Oil unsaponified reduces the cleansing effect of the CO Soap.


I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, as it is a personal decision. I think if you want to use something like jojoba oil or argan oil in your personal soaps go for it. For makers who sell, they usually understand oil properties better and can formulate a recipe that will have the same affect as soap made with expensive oils at a much lower price point. As a buyer, I choose not to buy soaps with high end oils because I do not want to spend that money on a wash off product. I'd rather buy the oils themselves and/or use in a leave on product. Using special butters may have more affect to reducing the cleansing feel of the soap due to the amount of beneficial unsaponifiables found in those soaps.


I think HP soaps are a bit special - adding the superfat after the cook probably does bring more to the soap than using a calculated lye discount (which is how I made my HP for the few batches I did). I think what you use to superfat in that case will affect the feel of the soap while using. I still wouldn't use high end oils to superfat though

So it is possible to reap some benefits if it’s added after a HP cook then? It just isn’t enough to make it worth using expensive oils. Is that correct?

 

[amd]

So it is possible to reap some benefits if it’s added after a HP cook then?

I think so - and I'm sure others will disagree - but it will also depend on what benefits specifically you are wanting. If it's a benefit that's better suited to a leave on product, than I don't think it's worth using in soap.

It just isn’t enough to make it worth using expensive oils. Is that correct?

See above regarding benefits. It's only worth using expensive oils if you think it is. I don't like to tell others how to spend their money or what soap they should/shouldn't be making for themselves. I only know what I will make as a seller, and what I would buy as a customer.

 

[Shaylyn Valdez]

I think so - and I'm sure others will disagree - but it will also depend on what benefits specifically you are wanting. If it's a benefit that's better suited to a leave on product, than I don't think it's worth using in soap.


See above regarding benefits. It's only worth using expensive oils if you think it is. I don't like to tell others how to spend their money or what soap they should/shouldn't be making for themselves. I only know what I will make as a seller, and what I would buy as a customer.

That makes sense!

 

[DeeAnna]

...does that mean that the more superfat you have the less cleansing it will be...

Okay, so there's two issues here.

One is soap's ability to emulsify fats. Every soap can emulsify fats although some are better at that than others due to their chemical makeup, higher water solubility, etc. It's true the more superfat, the less ability the soap will have to clean because the superfat interferes with the soap's ability to clean by emulsifying greasy dirt and excess skin oils.

A lot of people use that fact to draw the conclusion that increasing the superfat is the way to get a mild soap, and in some cases (see next paragraph) that's true. But I know soap made with the right blend of fatty acids can be mild even if the superfat is very low. Adding more superfat to this type of soap doesn't add more mildness. The extra superfat reduces the lather, makes the soap softer, and, yes, reduces the ability of the soap to clean.

The other issue is the ability of soap high in the shorter chain fatty acids (capric, caprylic, butyric, lauric, and others) to actually damage the stratum corneum (the non-living layer of skin) by removing too much of the desirable fats and proteins from that layer of the skin. Increasing the superfat for this type of soap is the only way I know of to make this soap sufficiently mild to the skin for general bathing.

 

[Shaylyn Valdez]

Okay, so there's two issues here.

One is soap's ability to emulsify fats. Every soap can emulsify fats although some are better at that than others due to their chemical makeup, higher water solubility, etc. It's true the more superfat, the less ability the soap will have to clean because the superfat interferes with the soap's ability to clean by emulsifying greasy dirt and excess skin oils.

A lot of people use that fact to draw the conclusion that increasing the superfat is the way to get a mild soap, and in some cases (see next paragraph) that's true. But I know soap made with the right blend of fatty acids can be mild even if the superfat is very low. Adding more superfat to this type of soap doesn't add more mildness. The extra superfat reduces the lather, makes the soap softer, and, yes, reduces the ability of the soap to clean.

The other issue is the ability of soap high in the shorter chain fatty acids (capric, caprylic, butyric, lauric, and others) to actually damage the stratum corneum (the non-living layer of skin) by removing too much of the desirable fats and proteins from that layer of the skin. Increasing the superfat for this type of soap is the only way I know of to make this soap sufficiently mild to the skin for general bathing.

Okay I’m following. So the best thing to do is to determine the superfat based on the oils and desired soap, since some need less and others like CO need more, and adding too much will get to a certain point that the superfat stops being beneficial and begins to go the opposite way and inhibits the soaps abilities for some soaps, correct?

 

[DeeAnna]

You nailed it, Shaylyn. Well said!

 

[Shaylyn Valdez]

You nailed it, Shaylyn. Well said!

Thank you all so much! I definitely got my answers and I feel I understand much more now! It’s much appreciated!

 

[runnerchicki]

Using 15-20% superfat in a high- or all-coconut oil soap is the same as as throwing a steak to a hungry dog so he doesn't attack you. Superfat emulsifies with this strongly cleansing soap so the soap will emulsify less of the natural fats on your skin. When I've washed with a CO soap with 20% superfat, I certainly get clean but I don't get the sense that any extra fat remains on my skin.

This makes so much sense. I'm guessing that is why the lather is so creamy.

 

[DeeAnna]

This makes so much sense. I'm guessing that is why the lather is so creamy.

Yep, that's my perception too. Extra fat interferes with the formation and stability of the air bubbles in the lather. The soap isn't able to form the big fluffy (and delicate) bubbles typical of a coconut oil soap that has a lower superfat.