Soy Wax Soap

[Dean]

Hi Soaperts,

I just made my first batch of CP soy wax soap. It overheated due to water discount. Caught it in time and threw it in the freezer b4 the lava monster crawled out of the mold. Was thinking of blending at room temp next time. Heard it helps prevent overheating. If I melt the oils together and let them cool to room temp will the CO and wax cause the oil mix to be to too thick at room temp? My recipie included 30% CO and 25% wax.

Also, is there a recommended max % of soy wax? I’ve done full water discount b4 but this was the fastest tracing ever. Talk about a quickie!

Time to pull my lil monster outa the freezer...

 

[dixiedragon]

Any fragrance involved? Some can cause overheating. How about honey, sugar or milk?

I soap with my oils at about 95-105 and my lye at room temp.

 

[Dean]

Any fragrance involved? Some can cause overheating. How about honey, sugar or milk?

I soap with my oils at about 95-105 and my lye at room temp.

Hi Dix,

None of the referenced. Just orange EO.

Lye sol was made with ice water.

 

[BattleGnome]

Look up the heat transfer method you don’t melt your hard oils at all. Mix your lye solution, let it clear, then pour the hot solution over your oils and hand stir to melt everything. It may not work well for something with high cocobutter (I don’t use soy wax) but it works perfect when your only hard oil is coconut oil. I’ve used it for salt bars with no issue.

 

[Dean]

Look up the heat transfer method you don’t melt your hard oils at all. Mix your lye solution, let it clear, then pour the hot solution over your oils and hand stir to melt everything. It may not work well for something with high cocobutter (I don’t use soy wax) but it works perfect when your only hard oil is coconut oil. I’ve used it for salt bars with no issue.

I like it! Thx Gnome.

 

[psfred]

Soy wax is a problem for CP if you use large amounts as it tends to "wax out" if the temperature drops. It melts around 140F, I think (or higher, don't remember), and in large amounts is a pain.

I HP soy wax soap -- made a nice one with 40% canola, 40$ soy oil, and 20% soy wax to use up some old veggie oil. Was soft to start with, but has hardened up nicely with a long cure and is quite skin friendly.

For shaving soap with soy wax, definitely use HP as you will be using something like 50%.

 

[Saranac]

The soy wax I use has a melting temp of about 120-125F; I'd think twice about cooling things down too much. My go-to CP formula is almost 40% soy wax, but I've used higher. I've never experience overheating with it, and I soap at 130F, with a 40% lye concentration, and most of the fragrances I used are known accelerators. I even insulate my molds and put them in a box with a heating pad for 6 hours. Of course, I also hand-stir, so that makes a difference. Were you using a stick blender? If so, how much blending did you do with it? What temps were you soaping at?

Additionally, I use 60% soy wax in my (KOH) shaving soap, and I CP that too (with a 40% lye concentration and aloe). Once in the mold, it heats up FAST, but I use a 4-inch PVP--they seem to hold heat VERY well, but it's never overheated.

 

[Dean]

The soy wax I use has a melting temp of about 120-125F; I'd think twice about cooling things down too much. My go-to CP formula is almost 40% soy wax, but I've used higher. I've never experience overheating with it, and I soap at 130F, with a 40% lye concentration, and most of the fragrances I used are known accelerators. I even insulate my molds and put them in a box with a heating pad for 6 hours. Of course, I also hand-stir, so that makes a difference. Were you using a stick blender? If so, how much blending did you do with it? What temps were you soaping at?

Hi Saranac,

I did use a stick blender. It probably traced in seconds instead of minutes. Should I not use a stick blender with soy wax?

Dont have a thermometer yet <eyes averted with shame>. The glass container was warm, not hot to touch. Just heated the hard oils enought to melt.

 

[Saranac]

If your oils were just melted, your oil temp was probably okay but how hot was your lye solution? Many soap without a thermometer, but I like one as it allows me to remove one extra variable so I'm more likely to get consistent results from batch to batch. Can you post your full recipe? It might help others if they know what you consider to be a water discount.

As a rule, I don't soap with a stick blender. No matter what I do, I always end up with bubbles. I can whisk a fragrance-free soy wax soap to trace in 20 minutes.

 

[earlene]

Dean, I follow Saranac's advice regarding the use of soy wax.

My soy wax is Golden Brands 415 and has a melting point of 120-125°F.

Looking back at my recipe notes, I used 30% SW, 20% HO Sunflower, 20% RBO, 17% CO, 10% Hemp, 3 % Castor, with [33% Lye] & 2% SF + ROE, EDTA, FO & colorant when I made it in Dec. of 2017. I soaped pretty much at the temperature required to maintain clear melted oils, but did not take a temperature to record.

Regarding the heat, aside from heating the SW & CO together to melting, I may have added some of the liquid oils before and some after melting, but did not make a note of it. I think I probably put one or two of the liquid oils into the pot to make melting easier, then added the others at room temperature, but without having made a specific notation, cannot say for sure. But that's what I usually do because it's easier to stir up solids in a little liquid once they are partially melted and it speeds up the melt without raising the heat too much.

My FO, Sweetgrass (BB) does not accelerate, so it played no part in heating. My lye solution was 50% masterbatched, so at room temp and the added distilled water was also at room temperature. My colorants were pre-mixed in some of the oil from the batch, so also at room temperature. So nothing added to the oils would have caused any overheating nor significant cooling.

I work a little slow, but not as slow as I did when I was totally new to soaping, so I believe it took a pretty short time from mixing to pouring, so the batter would not have had a lot of time to cool down too much or overheat, either. I don't SB much, but I do very short pulses a couple of times. I don't bring my batter to more than emulsion or the lightest thin trace when adding colors, because this gives me more time to work with colors.

The only other factor that I think would have made a difference to the batter overheating, which it did not for me, would have been the mold and insulation. I used a quart sized milk carton and insulated with towels and placed it in front of the hearth. It was winter in Wisconsin in a fairly cool environment, so felt I needed the insulation and added heat. Even with a fireplace going, the unit where I was staying felt quite cool most of the time. A wooden mold would have contained the heat more, but that's not what I was using.

So I don't think it was simply the SW that caused overheating, but the 30% CO in addition to other factors. What was your mold made of? Did you just make the lye solution, so that it was still hot or warm? Was your soaping room warm as well? What was your complete formula, lye concentration (you mentioned a high water discount), etc.?

 

[Dean]

If your oils were just melted, your oil temp was probably okay but how hot was your lye solution? Many soap without a thermometer, but I like one as it allows me to remove one extra variable so I'm more likely to get consistent results from batch to batch. Can you post your full recipe? It might help others if they know what you consider to be a water discount.

As a rule, I don't soap with a stick blender. No matter what I do, I always end up with bubbles. I can whisk a fragrance-free soy wax soap to trace in 20 minutes.

Lye sol was warm. Used 1/2 ice and water.

Here's the recipie.

40 almond
30 CO
25 soy wax
5 castor
3 orange EO
5 SF
1.1 water : 1 lye

I know Im going to get a spanking from the Soaperts for the full water discount. Wont do that again.

 

[Dean]

Dean, I follow Saranac's advice regarding the use of soy wax.

My soy wax is Golden Brands 415 and has a melting point of 120-125°F.

Looking back at my recipe notes, I used 30% SW, 20% HO Sunflower, 20% RBO, 17% CO, 10% Hemp, 3 % Castor, with [33% Lye] & 2% SF + ROE, EDTA, FO & colorant when I made it in Dec. of 2017. I soaped pretty much at the temperature required to maintain clear melted oils, but did not take a temperature to record.

Regarding the heat, aside from heating the SW & CO together to melting, I may have added some of the liquid oils before and some after melting, but did not make a note of it. I think I probably put one or two of the liquid oils into the pot to make melting easier, then added the others at room temperature, but without having made a specific notation, cannot say for sure. But that's what I usually do because it's easier to stir up solids in a little liquid once they are partially melted and it speeds up the melt without raising the heat too much.

My FO, Sweetgrass (BB) does not accelerate, so it played no part in heating. My lye solution was 50% masterbatched, so at room temp and the added distilled water was also at room temperature. My colorants were pre-mixed in some of the oil from the batch, so also at room temperature. So nothing added to the oils would have caused any overheating nor significant cooling.

I work a little slow, but not as slow as I did when I was totally new to soaping, so I believe it took a pretty short time from mixing to pouring, so the batter would not have had a lot of time to cool down too much or overheat, either. I don't SB much, but I do very short pulses a couple of times. I don't bring my batter to more than emulsion or the lightest thin trace when adding colors, because this gives me more time to work with colors.

The only other factor that I think would have made a difference to the batter overheating, which it did not for me, would have been the mold and insulation. I used a quart sized milk carton and insulated with towels and placed it in front of the hearth. It was winter in Wisconsin in a fairly cool environment, so felt I needed the insulation and added heat. Even with a fireplace going, the unit where I was staying felt quite cool most of the time. A wooden mold would have contained the heat more, but that's not what I was using.

So I don't think it was simply the SW that caused overheating, but the 30% CO in addition to other factors. What was your mold made of? Did you just make the lye solution, so that it was still hot or warm? Was your soaping room warm as well? What was your complete formula, lye concentration (you mentioned a high water discount), etc.?

Thx for researching ur 2017 recipie.

Mold was a milk carton but only 12.5 oz test batch. No insulation. Room wasnt warm. Lye was warm not hot.

I didnt think the SW made it overheat. I had the problem with non-SW recipies too. I was just wondering if the hard oils could be melted, mixed with liquid oils, cooled to room temp and then blended with lye sol. Sounds like thats not the route to go. Will follow above advice.

 

[Saranac]

Dean--have you look at this thread: www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/recipe-for-a-really-hard-bar.67389 . You'll find some posts about using SW, and thanks to earlene, some links to other posts about SW.

My method is to heat my castor and coconut oil (I use 92 degree CO, not the 76) in a stainless steel pot until the CO is melted. Then I add my soy wax, heat until it too is melted, and the temperature reaches about 150F (at this point, I know that EVERY bit of SW is melted, and it helps me to avoid stearic spots in the finished soap). I then remove the pan from the heat and add my liquid oils. Depending on the temperature in the house, this is usually enough to drop the temp to about 130F. I also keep my lye solution (40%) at about 125-130F (I don't master batch). If it's cooler than that, I don't worry about it, but if it drops my batter temp much below 125F, I turn the heat back on, let it come back to about 130, remove the pan from the heat, and whisk until trace.

What I find interesting, is that your lye solution is very concentrated; contrary to what one might believe, that usually is enough to minimize the chances of over heating. I'm left wondering a few things: where did you buy your orange EO? Perhaps it's a fragrance oil masquerading as EO (and as a result, is adulterated with something that's not CP soap friendly). Also, where are you buying your SW? Are you sure it's pure vegetable oil and not a product meant for just candles (which may mean it too is" adulterated"). I use the 100% soy wax from NG; it's safe for cosmetic use.

 

[earlene]

Lye sol was warm. Used 1/2 ice and water.

Here's the recipie.

40 almond
30 CO
25 soy wax
5 castor
3 orange EO
5 SF
1.1 water : 1 lye

I know Im going to get a spanking from the Soaperts for the full water discount. Wont do that again.

It looks like you used 50% Lye Concentration (1:1 lye to water) in a small batch (12.5 ounces of oils; total batch weight 466 grams) *

Within the milk carton, how much surface area are we talking? As you know, a larger surface area looses more heat than a smaller surface area, so that can also make a difference.

You say the lye solution wasn't hot. But I wonder how much differently we may 'feel' heat to the touch. What may feel cool to you, may feel warm to me, as we all really do have varying tolerances to heat and cold.

Even with warm lye solution (as opposed to hot), I think the reason for the overheating was the combination of 30% CO and 50% lye solution. Other factors may have contributed, but from what I have read, more water is recommended to prevent high CO soaps from overheating. So that's why I think that might be part of it. I don't think an Orange essential oil should contribute to overheating, but others who have more experience using it in soap may have better knowledge (I have not used an orange EO in soap.)

* That's about the size I prefer for a test batch, but not at such a high lye concentration. For a test batch with new-to-me ingredients or a newly formulated recipe, I tend to go for a 33% lye concentration.

Edit: I just read Saranac's reply, and she made some good points about the EO source and purity, as well as if you are sure you received 100% pure soy wax and not one with a blend or additives.

 

[Dean]

I'm left wondering a few things: where did you buy your orange EO? Perhaps it's a fragrance oil masquerading as EO (and as a result, is adulterated with something that's not CP soap friendly). Also, where are you buying your SW? Are you sure it's pure vegetable oil and not a product meant for just candles (which may mean it too is" adulterated"). I use the 100% soy wax from NG; it's safe for cosmetic use.

Thx for sharing ur process and the link.

Orange oil 10x from a shop that buys from Brambleberry.

Soy Wax is 415, no additives. I know its not the SW that causes the overheating. I have the prob with other oils/recipies even tho I keep everything at warm to touch temp. Its the water discount. Even at 1.5 water the lava monster raises it ugly head. At 2:1, no overheating but I get partial gel. HP is the only solution that I found that allowed water discount without partial gel or overheating. From the super trace though, I can tell SW is a different beast to work with and am lil worried bout how it will react to HP.

BTW...does “Saranac” refer to the NY lake?

 

[Dean]

It looks like you used 50% Lye Concentration (1:1 lye to water) in a small batch (12.5 ounces of oils; total batch weight 466 grams) *

Within the milk carton, how much surface area are we talking? As you know, a larger surface area looses more heat than a smaller surface area, so that can also make a difference.

You say the lye solution wasn't hot. But I wonder how much differently we may 'feel' heat to the touch. What may feel cool to you, may feel warm to me, as we all really do have varying tolerances to heat and cold.

Even with warm lye solution (as opposed to hot), I think the reason for the overheating was the combination of 30% CO and 50% lye solution. Other factors may have contributed, but from what I have read, more water is recommended to prevent high CO soaps from overheating. So that's why I think that might be part of it. I don't think an Orange essential oil should contribute to overheating, but others who have more experience using it in soap may have better knowledge (I have not used an orange EO in soap.)

* That's about the size I prefer for a test batch, but not at such a high lye concentration. For a test batch with new-to-me ingredients or a newly formulated recipe, I tend to go for a 33% lye concentration.

Edit: I just read Saranac's reply, and she made some good points about the EO source and purity, as well as if you are sure you received 100% pure soy wax and not one with a blend or additives.

Surface Area: 1/2 gal carton, so bout 4x4?

Very interesting comment bout CO/water discount overheating. I think thats it. Thx.

 

[Saranac]

Thx for sharing ur process and the link.

Orange oil 10x from a shop that buys from Brambleberry.

Soy Wax is 415, no additives. I know ts not the SW that causes the overheating. I have the prob with other oils/recipies even tho I keep everything at warm to touch temp. Its the water discount. Even at 1.5 water the lava monster raises it ugly head. At 2:1, no overheating but I get partial gel. HP is the only solution that I found that allowed water discount without partial gel or overheating. From the super trace though, I can tell SW is a different beast to work with and am lil worried bout how it will react to HP.

BTW...does “Saranac” refer to the NY lake?

The EO should be fine then. My only other thought, especially if this is happening with other batches, is that maybe you're incorporating too much air into the batter with your SB, and as it heats up, the air expands, causing the volcano . . . that's all I got!

As for my name--here in upstate NY there is a town called Saranac Lake (which is actually on Flower Lake); it's about 10 minutes from Lake Placid (of "Miracle on Ice" fame). I happen to live in a smaller town that goes by the name of Saranac (about 30 minutes from SL). But there's also the Upper Saranac Lake, Lower Saranac Lake, and the Saranac River. There's also my business name, which incorporates "Saranac." And Saranac Soda, and Saranac Beer . . . .

 

[Dean]

that's all I got!

That’s more than enough...thx!

 

[Dean]

I've been using my 30% CO bars for a couple w is still too drying. What's the max

Look up the heat transfer method you don’t melt your hard oils at all. Mix your lye solution, let it clear, then pour the hot solution over your oils and hand stir to melt everything. It may not work well for something with high cocobutter (I don’t use soy wax) but it works perfect when your only hard oil is coconut oil. I’ve used it for salt bars with no issue.

Tried the heat transfer method. Interestingly, it wasnt hot enough to melt the soy wax. 30 seconds in the microwave finshed the job.

 

[earlene]

I have only used the heat transfer method successfully with softer hard oils like Coconut or Shea or Mango. It was never enough to melt Cocoa Butter, even with a small amount of CB. But since I use masterbatch lye now, the heat transfer method isn't at all convenient anyway.

I shy away from putting lye in the mircrowave oven, even though I know some do, but I just don't like lifting to the height required to put it in my microwave, which is at face level when I am standing. Too dangerous, IMO. However, maybe if my microwave was on the kitchen counter or I were 6 feet tall, it would be less of an issue.