Some improvement on my recipe is needed

[TheDebby]

Hello everyone!

I would like to ask some advice about the recipe I've used for my latest batch of soap.
After two weeks of waiting I still had a lot of trouble getting it out of the mold.

Once out of the mold I still had to wait a week or so to be able to cut.
Also I got either some glycerin rivers or something else happened.
I'll add a picture so if someone would be so kind maybe you could diagnose what really has happened.
(On top is a mixture of MP soap and bath butter, next time I'll probably would want to CP use soap for the same effect)

10 % superfat
27% lye

60 %	Olive oil	600 gram
20 %	Coconut oil	200 gram
10 %	Castor oil	100 gram
10 %	Apricot seed oil	100 gram

So far I've been thinking about maybe using some more coconut oil.
Also I think that using a lye solution with a stronger concentration might help.

But all tips and advice are more than welcome!
Thanks for reading and thinking with me,

- Debby

*Edit I'm planning on buying sodium lactate to use in the future when I make soap.
If anyone happens to know a good website that delivers to the Netherlands that would be great!
**Edit: I've used mica for the color and TD dissolved in almond oil.
Also I've run out of apricot seed oil I'm planning on not using it for now.
*** Edit: Took typo out of title

 

[atiz]

It seems that you have a lot of liquid oils and also a lot of water (if 27% lye refers to lye concentration).
Hard oils can really help -- lard, tallow, palm, soy wax are a few that people tend to use. A lot of people around here (including me) work with 33% lye concentration, so less water to evaporate.

You can also use a bit of salt in your lye water to make the soap initially harder, or a little bit of beeswax in your oils (not everyone likes that though, but 1% already makes a difference).

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I agree with atiz. The addition of lard, tallow or palm will firm the bar up nicely.
10% SF leaves a lot of oil/fats unsaponified. 5% SF is standard - works well with most formulas.
10% Castor Oil is high. You don't need much. 5% is better. I rarely use castor oil in hard bars.

You can learn to adjust recipes yourself if you use SoapCalc. It gives you a Range to aim at when formulating soaps. Here's a snapshot of your soap:

As you can see, most of the values are outside the recommended range.
Another thing I like to look at is the ratio of Saturated to Unsaturated fats. That's another area that needs adjustment to make the soap easier to release from the mold:

The Sat value is low. You can raise it with the addition of Lard, Tallow, or Palm.
The Iodine Value is high. 70 is considered the max you should go. That needs to come down.
INS Value is a measure of the overall qualities of the formula. Since an INS of 160 is considered "perfect", that needs to come up.

So here's a quick tweak I did based on the advice given above:
5% superfat
27% lye (or 33% as atiz suggested in Post #2)
40% Olive oil 400 gram
20% Coconut oil 200 gram
5% Castor oil 50 gram
10% Apricot seed oil 100 gram
25% Lard, Tallow or Palm 250 gram

Here's what the bar qualities look like now:

You can see what a difference the addition of a hard oil (lard) makes. All values are within the recommended Range. An INS of 142 is fine. Most high conditioning bars fall around that INS value. I expect it will take a full 6 weeks to cure but should be quite nice at the end of cure and easy to unmold the next day.

The addition of a hard oil raised the Sat level. Somewhere around 50/50 is "ideal". The Iodine value is an indication of hardness. You could lower it by upping the coconut or lard a bit but then you will lower the "conditioning" value.

So now it's up to you to tweak to your heart's content. It might be helpful to find a Chart to show you what to expect from the various Oils, Fats, and Butters.

HTH and HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[rdc1978]

I agree with atiz. The addition of lard, tallow or palm will firm the bar up nicely.
10% SF leaves a lot of oil/fats unsaponified. 5% SF is standard - works well with most formulas.
10% Castor Oil is high. You don't need much. 5% is better. I rarely use castor oil in hard bars.

You can learn to adjust recipes yourself if you use SoapCalc. It gives you a Range to aim at when formulating soaps. Here's a snapshot of your soap:
View attachment 45755
As you can see, most of the values are outside the recommended range.
Another thing I like to look at is the ratio of Saturated to Unsaturated fats. That's another area that needs adjustment to make the soap easier to release from the mold:
View attachment 45756
The Sat value is low. You can raise it with the addition of Lard, Tallow, or Palm.
The Iodine Value is high. 70 is considered the max you should go. That needs to come down.
INS Value is a measure of the overall qualities of the formula. Since an INS of 160 is considered "perfect", that needs to come up.

So here's a quick tweak I did based on the advice given above:
5% superfat
27% lye (or 33% as atiz suggested in Post #2)
40% Olive oil 400 gram
20% Coconut oil 200 gram
5% Castor oil 50 gram
10% Apricot seed oil 100 gram
25% Lard, Tallow or Palm 250 gram

Here's what the bar qualities look like now:
View attachment 45758
You can see what a difference the addition of a hard oil (lard) makes. All values are within the recommended Range. An INS of 142 is fine. Most high conditioning bars fall around that INS value. I expect it will take a full 6 weeks to cure but should be quite nice at the end of cure and easy to unmold the next day.

View attachment 45757
The addition of a hard oil raised the Sat level. Somewhere around 50/50 is "ideal". The Iodine value is an indication of hardness. You could lower it by upping the coconut or lard a bit but then you will lower the "conditioning" value.

So now it's up to you to tweak to your heart's content. It might be helpful to find a Chart to show you what to expect from the various Oils, Fats, and Butters.

HTH and HAPPY SOAPING! View attachment 45759

Wow, you just dropped a whole lot of knowledge I didn't even know I needed! Thank you! Now I'm going through my recipes and I see that the ones with the most problematic glycerin rivers had fairly low INS values.

 

[Arimara]

Your superfat is very high for a recipe like that, where you went full water. As low as the coconut is, you're actually fine. Adding more will add to some hardness and also up the cleansing factor. If you want a harder bar, you would need to consider animal fats, butters (ex- shea) or using palm oil. You could also use way less water, bringing that concentration to at least 33%, add some salt to your liquid before adding your lye (saying that for some newbies) or add some sodium lactate to your batch at trace.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Wow, you just dropped a whole lot of knowledge I didn't even know I needed! Thank you! Now I'm going through my recipes and I see that the ones with the most problematic glycerin rivers had fairly low INS values.

You're very welcome! I'm sorry I can't help with the glycerin rivers. There are plenty of members who know more about avoiding them than I do. As for INS Values, they are fairly arbitrary, meaning, they help when used as a target for what I want to accomplish with any given formula. For example, 100% olive oil has an INS Value of 105; Conditioning Value of 85. That's a very soft soap that requires a week before unmolding and at least 3 months cure. So, the more you work with it, the more you can predict results or at least attempt to.
KEEP GOOD NOTES!

 

[amd]

I think your glycerin rivers will decrease when you reduce your lye concentration. How are you mixing your colors? Are you adding them straight to batter, or pre-mixing with oil or water? If you're using water consider switching to oil, or vegetable glycerin. Also, I think soaping at a lower temp might help reduce them.

 

[rdc1978]

I think your glycerin rivers will decrease when you reduce your lye concentration. How are you mixing your colors? Are you adding them straight to batter, or pre-mixing with oil or water? If you're using water consider switching to oil, or vegetable glycerin. Also, I think soaping at a lower temp might help reduce them.

So, where I've gotten the worst glycerin rivers have been with soaps where I've used titanium oxide.

The worst offender, like THE WORST was a soap where I thought I'd be real clever and counteract the anticipated brown tint from my FO by putting adding a load of titanium oxide.

It was a fairly early batch so I'm guessing I didn't disperse it in anything and I certainly didn't adhere to any sort of recommendation for the amount of mica or titanium oxide per pound.

The soap looks awful, but, strangely I really like using it to wash my hands as it doesn't leave them dry, even after multiple washes. It also has a really great scent ....it's just a very, very ugly soap full of glycerin rivers

I've noticed....I wouldn't call them glycerin rivers per see, but maybe like small glycerin waterways when I've used micas. I feel like the issue may be that I'm using too much .....I now disperse the mica in sweet almond oil.

I soap around 90 degrees, and I need to learn more about lye concentration. Thanks for the tip that it could reduce the glycerin rivers in soap. I have, to date used a percentage of water, but maybe that's not the best.

 

[amd]

I think TD increases soap temperatures and that's why people tend to notice it in white soap with TD. You can reduce the amount of TD you use, unless you're using a high vanillan FO, or an ingredient that affects the batter color (Goat milk is a struggle for me to get a good white soap), you're probably using more TD (and increasing your soap temp) than you need to use. I use water soluble TD pre-mixed at a ratio of 5 parts water to 1 part TD, and add at a rate of about .5 tsp per lb. My recipe cures fairly white without TD though. Have you tried your recipe without any TD? Maybe you don't need to add it.

Glycerin rivers can happen in any color. Looking at the picture in your original post

the lighter portions don't seem to have any rivers, or noticeable rivers, whereas the top portion with other colors seems to have more apparent rivers, which is why i asked how you add your color to soap.

 

[rdc1978]

I think TD increases soap temperatures and that's why people tend to notice it in white soap with TD. You can reduce the amount of TD you use, unless you're using a high vanillan FO, or an ingredient that affects the batter color (Goat milk is a struggle for me to get a good white soap), you're probably using more TD (and increasing your soap temp) than you need to use. I use water soluble TD pre-mixed at a ratio of 5 parts water to 1 part TD, and add at a rate of about .5 tsp per lb. My recipe cures fairly white without TD though. Have you tried your recipe without any TD? Maybe you don't need to add it.

Glycerin rivers can happen in any color. Looking at the picture in your original post
View attachment 45789
the lighter portions don't seem to have any rivers, or noticeable rivers, whereas the top portion with other colors seems to have more apparent rivers, which is why i asked how you add your color to soap.

Thank you for the detailed post! I normally disperse my mica in sweet almond oil now. And now I'm trying to stick to one teaspoon or less of mica ppo.

The disaster soap I made was with a rose jam dupe f/o that I knew was gonna turn the batter brown. But you're right, maybe it's a good idea to try without a titanium oxide and see how bright the soap turns out.

ETA - I'm also going to try light olive oil to see if that naturally brightens the soap color, though I've heard some bad things about light OO, so fingers crossed!

 

[TheDebby]

First of all I really want to say how much I appreciate the help I'm getting!
I've been trying to learn myself the things I need to know by looking up things on the internet.
I feel like I've learned more today than all of my effort combined.

I'll try and awnser any question in a orderly manner, if I'm unclear or don't seem to understand please let me know if you want.

You can learn to adjust recipes yourself if you use SoapCalc. It gives you a Range to aim at when formulating soaps.

Thank you for the clear explanation!

I'll start looking for a place to buy palm (oil or fat?).
What I've found so far is that the supermarket is selling palm fat (a.k.a. cooking fat) it says it is 100% fat but has some aroma and anti foaming agents in there. (If they have it on stock, I don't go that often lately)
Once upon a team I've read about someone using this for soap.
Do you know whether that is that a good idea or not?

I'll probably will have to read the information a couple of times to make sure I'm getting all the information.
I will most definitely use the information when making my next batch!

Your superfat is very high for a recipe like that, where you went full water. As low as the coconut is, you're actually fine. Adding more will add to some hardness and also up the cleansing factor. If you want a harder bar, you would need to consider animal fats, butters (ex- shea) or using palm oil. You could also use way less water, bringing that concentration to at least 33%, add some salt to your liquid before adding your lye (saying that for some newbies) or add some sodium lactate to your batch at trace.

If I understand you correctly: I only need 5% of superfat because I don't use a lot of coconut oil?
So let's say if I decided to use 30% or 40% of coconut oil I could use 10% superfat because otherwise it could dry out the skin to much?

I think your glycerin rivers will decrease when you reduce your lye concentration. How are you mixing your colors? Are you adding them straight to batter, or pre-mixing with oil or water? If you're using water consider switching to oil, or vegetable glycerin. Also, I think soaping at a lower temp might help reduce them.

I will most definitely try less water next time.
I've been mixing the colors into almond oil before adding it into the soap.

I just so happen to use a thermometer when making my soap.
The lye solution was around 47 degrees Celsius
The oil mixture was around 39 degrees Celsius
Should I let my lye cool down more before making the soap?
I'm freezing about the half of my distilled water to keep the fumes at a minimum.
So I could wait a bit longer if that is better for the soap.

the lighter portions don't seem to have any rivers, or noticeable rivers, whereas the top portion with other colors seems to have more apparent rivers, which is why i asked how you add your color to soap.

I've dissolved in color powder and the TD in almond oil.
Maybe next time I want to use sunflower oil (because I have a couple of bottles).
If I understand correctly, part of the problem could be that I've used to much of the color or I should have mixed it a bit better into the oil?

 

[rdc1978]

First of all I really want to say how much I appreciate the help I'm getting!
I've been trying to learn myself the things I need to know by looking up things on the internet.
I feel like I've learned more today than all of my effort combined.

I'll try and awnser any question in a orderly manner, if I'm unclear or don't seem to understand please let me know if you want.


Thank you for the clear explanation!

I'll start looking for a place to buy palm (oil or fat?).
What I've found so far is that the supermarket is selling palm fat (a.k.a. cooking fat) it says it is 100% fat but has some aroma and anti foaming agents in there. (If they have it on stock, I don't go that often lately)
Once upon a team I've read about someone using this for soap.
Do you know whether that is that a good idea or not?

I'll probably will have to read the information a couple of times to make sure I'm getting all the information.
I will most definitely use the information when making my next batch!



If I understand you correctly: I only need 5% of superfat because I don't use a lot of coconut oil?
So let's say if I decided to use 30% or 40% of coconut oil I could use 10% superfat because otherwise it could dry out the skin to much?


I will most definitely try less water next time.
I've been mixing the colors into almond oil before adding it into the soap.

I just so happen to use a thermometer when making my soap.
The lye solution was around 47 degrees Celsius
The oil mixture was around 39 degrees Celsius
Should I let my lye cool down more before making the soap?
I'm freezing about the half of my distilled water to keep the fumes at a minimum.
So I could wait a bit longer if that is better for the soap.



I've dissolved in color powder and the TD in almond oil.
Maybe next time I want to use sunflower oil (because I have a couple of bottles).
If I understand correctly, part of the problem could be that I've used to much of the color or I should have mixed it a bit better into the oil?

I recently bought palm oil on BB and I thought the price was right. It was $14 for 7 pounds. I just wanted to give you a price point in case you want to shop around!

 

[Arimara]

...If I understand you correctly: I only need 5% of superfat because I don't use a lot of coconut oil?
So let's say if I decided to use 30% or 40% of coconut oil I could use 10% superfat because otherwise it could dry out the skin to much?...

Yes but why would you want to use that much coconut oil anyway? It will make a harder bar but it won't last as long, especially with a cure under 6 months. Coconut oil is very soluble as a soap.

As far as your colorant is concerned, it looks fine to me. Your bar is not crumbly. In this case, I honestly think the high water is more of the culprit. If you make another batch as close to this one as possible but used 33% or a 2:1 water to lye ratio at least, I think you would notice a difference.

 

[amd]

In this case, I honestly think the high water is more of the culprit. If you make another batch as close to this one as possible but used 33% or a 2:1 water to lye ratio at least, I think you would notice a difference.

I agree with this advice too, although I think temps may be more the culprit than water. I typically soap 25-30% concentration, which forces my soap to gel, and get minimal rivers (darn the bad luck).

If I understand correctly, part of the problem could be that I've used to much of the color or I should have mixed it a bit better into the oil?

I don't think mixing better will have an affect, but in the case of TD less maybe more. I was more concerned that if you were using water soluble TD and adding a lot of TD mixed with a lot of water. I should properly disclaim all of my advice regarding glycerin rivers has been from reading and not actual practice - I really like glycerin rivers so have never tried to discourage them. It seems the main advice given is to soap at lower temps and reduce water amounts in soap. I think if you search the forum there's a few good threads that have resources that really go into explaining the phenomenon that is glycerin rivers. Including this source: Soapy Stuff: Crackling, streaking, and mottling

As for how much CO to use... use as much as you like. It's your soap. While there are some of us that sell and want longer lasting soap for our customers so that they keep coming back and are willing to pay more than WalMart prices... if you're only making for yourself, you can always make more. Do what makes a nice soap for you. And if a 30% CO soap (I wouldn't think you'd need to go above 5-7% SF) makes your skin happy, go for it. My husband loves high CO soaps, usually I make him salt bars, but there is one semi-local soap seller whose regular recipe is 60% CO and filled in with a bit of OO, Almond and castor because the seller is trying to make the cheapest bar possible to sell at $7 a pop... ahem. anyways, my husband likes that soap too although it does get used up more quickly, because he has very oily skin and the higher cleansing works better for him. His skin needs are different than mine... as are your skin needs. Do what works for your skin.

 

[TheDebby]

I recently bought palm oil on BB and I thought the price was right. It was $14 for 7 pounds. I just wanted to give you a price point in case you want to shop around!

Good to know! I wish I could order on BB but the shipping cost alone are $79.74.
I'm sure I can find palm oil in my country though!

Yes but why would you want to use that much coconut oil anyway? It will make a harder bar but it won't last as long, especially with a cure under 6 months. Coconut oil is very soluble as a soap.

As far as your colorant is concerned, it looks fine to me. Your bar is not crumbly. In this case, I honestly think the high water is more of the culprit. If you make another batch as close to this one as possible but used 33% or a 2:1 water to lye ratio at least, I think you would notice a difference.

Thank you for the advice!
Maybe it won't be necessary, I've never really used more then 20% because I knew it could dry out the skin a bit.
In my older batches (a few years ago made before my soap break) I never used more then 10%. because I had a very dry and sensitive skin.
Since I've stopped using shower gel with SLS/SLES I have a lot less of "random" irritation/reactions.
So I feel like I can experiment a little bit more.

(I actually started making soap because at the time I couldn't find anything my skin wouldn't react to in a bad way)

To be honest I was already thinking about making the next batch the same except for the water part.
I feel like it would be nice to see the difference it makes, you know for "science".
So my next batch is going to be the improved recipe.

I agree with this advice too, although I think temps may be more the culprit than water. I typically soap 25-30% concentration, which forces my soap to gel, and get minimal rivers (darn the bad luck).

I don't think mixing better will have an affect, but in the case of TD less maybe more. I was more concerned that if you were using water soluble TD and adding a lot of TD mixed with a lot of water. I should properly disclaim all of my advice regarding glycerin rivers has been from reading and not actual practice - I really like glycerin rivers so have never tried to discourage them. It seems the main advice given is to soap at lower temps and reduce water amounts in soap. I think if you search the forum there's a few good threads that have resources that really go into explaining the phenomenon that is glycerin rivers. Including this source: Soapy Stuff: Crackling, streaking, and mottling

As for how much CO to use... use as much as you like. It's your soap. While there are some of us that sell and want longer lasting soap for our customers so that they keep coming back and are willing to pay more than WalMart prices... if you're only making for yourself, you can always make more. Do what makes a nice soap for you. And if a 30% CO soap (I wouldn't think you'd need to go above 5-7% SF) makes your skin happy, go for it. My husband loves high CO soaps, usually I make him salt bars, but there is one semi-local soap seller whose regular recipe is 60% CO and filled in with a bit of OO, Almond and castor because the seller is trying to make the cheapest bar possible to sell at $7 a pop... ahem. anyways, my husband likes that soap too although it does get used up more quickly, because he has very oily skin and the higher cleansing works better for him. His skin needs are different than mine... as are your skin needs. Do what works for your skin.

Thank you for the information!
To be completely honest I don't really know how much my skin likes CO.
I probably could make a few very small batches with different amount CO.
I could just use them and find out witch one I prefer.
If I don't use any colors in the soap it would be easy enough, maybe a mica line in the middle see witch soap is witch.

 

[amd]

To be completely honest I don't really know how much my skin likes CO.
I probably could make a few very small batches with different amount CO.
I could just use them and find out witch one I prefer.

Yep, that's what I did for about 10 months when I first started making soap. I made small batches of plain uncolored, unscented soaps, and just played with the recipes. If I didn't like a soap, I still wrapped and labeled it (I kept detailed notebooks with recipe # so I could just label the soap with "recipe #", which was really smart of me because now 6 years later I would have no clue what that soap is) and threw it in a box. Once in awhile I check the box and my notebooks if I want to change a formula to see if I have done that, helps to see how the soap has aged. I only made 1-2 batches a month just because my (at the time) little family couldn't go through it all and I was kind of shy about sharing with other people.

 

[TheDebby]

I've tried finding this on the forum but couldn't find it.
How long do I need to let my soap cure/sit before it is safe to use?
My first batch (the picture I've posted was my second one) was made on 2 April I used a slightly different recipe without CO but the same amount of water and lye. This soap is the reason I added CO in my second recipe.

If needed I can look up exactly what I used, since I started soaping again I always print my recipe.
(Today I finally got to clean the edges, I'm very happy with the result)

Yep, that's what I did for about 10 months when I first started making soap. I made small batches of plain uncolored, unscented soaps, and just played with the recipes. If I didn't like a soap, I still wrapped and labeled it (I kept detailed notebooks with recipe # so I could just label the soap with "recipe #", which was really smart of me because now 6 years later I would have no clue what that soap is) and threw it in a box. Once in awhile I check the box and my notebooks if I want to change a formula to see if I have done that, helps to see how the soap has aged. I only made 1-2 batches a month just because my (at the time) little family couldn't go through it all and I was kind of shy about sharing with other people.

That sounds smart! I have a little book lying around where I used to write my soap recipe in before I made it.
I could take a look at it but I wouldn't remember witch one I liked and witch one I didn't, I did not really expect to get back into soaping.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

FWIW, I print out the SoapCalc Sheet and make notes right on that sheet. I also keep it with the batch after cut and throught cure. Cure, BTW, is normally 6 weeks, but it varies according to the oils used.

Oh, almost forgot... you may want to start another thread about where to buy supplies in the Netherlands. The "Shopping Recommendations" Forum is for just that purpose. Hopefully, our overseas members will see it and respond.

 

[PieBorg]

Here's a link with a great explanation of why glycerine rivers occur, how to prevent them, and how to use them as a design feature:

https://auntieclaras.com/2014/05/glycerine-rivers-secret-revealed/

 

[shunt2011]

I cure my soaps a minimum of 4 weeks. However, I prefer 6-8 weeks if possible. I only do 4 weeks if I'm running short on something for my shows. It will also depend on your recipe. Like 100% OO requires a year or more. Salt Soap 6 months but I prefer 12 or longer.