Soft CP soap and gelling

[LiliKuenca]

Hi Good morning. I have a question that has me puzzled.
I made the following recipe:
Organic virgin coconut oil: 35%
Cocoa butter: 14%
Olive oil: 35%
Sweet almond: 9%
Castor oil: 7%

From Soapmaking friend:
Lye: 67.7 g (31% concentration)
water: 150.5 g
Added 1 t PPO of sodium lactate

Soaped at around 39 degC for lye and 38degC for oils and divided batter into 3 to colour with titanium oxide, ultramarine violet powder and chromium oxide green. After pouring all the colours I put it in the oven at preheated 80degC and switched off the oven. I left it there for about 14 hours and then tried to unmould it but it was very soft so I left it for another day. I unmoulded and cut it today but it's still soft. My question is, isn't sodium lactate and/or forcing gel supposed to produce a harder bar or at least can be unmoulded easier? It's been very humid around here (UK) this week, could that have an effect on the soap?
I've already used this recipe 3 times this week with variable results. I look at the fatty acid profile and from my unexperienced opinion it should have produced an ok hardish bar.
Am I missing something?
Thank you very much

 

[Rsapienza]

Hi Good morning. I have a question that has me puzzled.
I made the following recipe:
Organic virgin coconut oil: 35%
Cocoa butter: 14%
Olive oil: 35%
Sweet almond: 9%
Castor oil: 7%

From Soapmaking friend:
Lye: 67.7 g (31% concentration)
water: 150.5 g
Added 1 t PPO of sodium lactate

Soaped at around 39 degC for lye and 38degC for oils and divided batter into 3 to colour with titanium oxide, ultramarine violet powder and chromium oxide green. After pouring all the colours I put it in the oven at preheated 80degC and switched off the oven. I left it there for about 14 hours and then tried to unmould it but it was very soft so I left it for another day. I unmoulded and cut it today but it's still soft. My question is, isn't sodium lactate and/or forcing gel supposed to produce a harder bar or at least can be unmoulded easier? It's been very humid around here (UK) this week, could that have an effect on the soap?
I've already used this recipe 3 times this week with variable results. I look at the fatty acid profile and from my unexperienced opinion it should have produced an ok hardish bar.
Am I missing something?
Thank you very much

I don't think you're missing anything and I agree, it should have been hard enough to unmold considering it gelled and the use of SL. Have you checked your scale by any chance?

 

[LiliKuenca]

I don't think you're missing anything and I agree, it should have been hard enough to unmold considering it gelled and the use of SL. Have you checked your scale by any chance?

You mean my balance? No I haven't as I have just bought it. Do you think that could be it? What about the atmospheric humidity. It has been around 75% and above all week.

 

[DeeAnna]

There's no way to know if your scale (or balance, if you will) is a problem until you check it to verify. It's kinda like checking the On-Off switch is turned on if an appliance isn't working -- just one of those basic, simple tests one should try first before going on to more complicated stuff.

I think you're assuming more complicated problems are going on before you have done any troubleshooting of the basics.

Very high humidity can be an issue when curing soap, but in my experience humidity is not an issue when making soap. But even if it was, 75% humidity isn't all that terribly high, IMO. Where I live in the central United States, the humidity is 85 to 99% for a large part of the summer, and I can make soap just fine.

Okay, on to the more basic stuff.

I would expect your soap should have done fine by having the batter at 100F / 38C and using a CPOP method during saponification. But you've made an assumption that doing these things will automatically mean the soap definitely did get warm enough to gel.

Until you have more experience, I'd suggest you also verify the soap is in gel after a few hours of being in the warm oven. Sometimes soap does surprising things that are worth learning about. So check it next time -- does it eventually show a darker oval in the center of the molded soap? If so, this is the gelled portion of the soap. The lighter more opaque border around this oval center is ungelled soap. Sometimes soap will only partly gel, and the outer ungelled portions stay softer while the center core is firmer.

Please don't mix units in your recipe. You gave the fats as percentages and the NaOH and other ingredients as weights. When people do this (you aren't the only one), it takes a lot of fiddling around to reconstruct what the person actually did. Stick to weights for ALL ingredients and people will be better able to help you.

I'm guessing you used about 500 grams of fats and perhaps 10% superfat???? If so, don't overdo the superfat. I'd guess this recipe will be mild enough at 5% superfat. Less superfat will improve the lather and may make a harder bar, which might help you with your problems.

Another thing that might help you is to use a 33% to 35% lye concentration -- less water in other words. I wouldn't expect to have big problems with the soap being overly soft at 31% lye concentration, but this is a simple change that might be worth trying.

Did you pour the soap batter into the mold at emulsion or very light trace? Or did you pour the batter into the mold when it was thicker? If you're pouring at emulsion or v. light trace, try pouring the batter when it's a wee bit thicker.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

There's no way to know if your scale (or balance, if you will) is a problem until you check it to verify. It's kinda like checking the On-Off switch is turned on if an appliance isn't working -- just one of those basic, simple tests one should try first before going on to more complicated stuff.

I think you're assuming more complicated problems are going on before you have done any troubleshooting of the basics.

Very high humidity can be an issue when curing soap, but in my experience humidity is not an issue when making soap. But even if it was, 75% humidity isn't all that terribly high, IMO. Where I live in the central United States, the humidity is 85 to 99% for a large part of the summer, and I can make soap just fine.

Okay, on to the more basic stuff.

I would expect your soap should have done fine by having the batter at 100F / 38C and using a CPOP method during saponification. But you've made an assumption that doing these things will automatically mean the soap definitely did get warm enough to gel.

Until you have more experience, I'd suggest you also verify the soap is in gel after a few hours of being in the warm oven. Sometimes soap does surprising things that are worth learning about. So check it next time -- does it eventually show a darker oval in the center of the molded soap? If so, this is the gelled portion of the soap. The lighter more opaque border around this oval center is ungelled soap. Sometimes soap will only partly gel, and the outer ungelled portions stay softer while the center core is firmer.

Please don't mix units in your recipe. You gave the fats as percentages and the NaOH and other ingredients as weights. When people do this (you aren't the only one), it takes a lot of fiddling around to reconstruct what the person actually did. Stick to weights for ALL ingredients and people will be better able to help you.

I'm guessing you used about 500 grams of fats and perhaps 10% superfat???? If so, don't overdo the superfat. I'd guess this recipe will be mild enough at 5% superfat. Less superfat will improve the lather and may make a harder bar, which might help you with your problems.

Another thing that might help you is to use a 33% to 35% lye concentration -- less water in other words. I wouldn't expect to have big problems with the soap being overly soft at 31% lye concentration, but this is a simple change that might be worth trying.

Did you pour the soap batter into the mold at emulsion or very light trace? Or did you pour the batter into the mold when it was thicker? If you're pouring at emulsion or v. light trace, try pouring the batter when it's a wee bit thicker.

Could the virgin coconut oil be the problem? My soap calculator doesn't have a listing for it, so I was just wondering if there is a SAP difference?

 

[DeeAnna]

I can't say I've heard anyone talk about virgin CO saponifying any differently than conventional CO. Hard to say.

 

[LiliKuenca]

There's no way to know if your scale (or balance, if you will) is a problem until you check it to verify. It's kinda like checking the On-Off switch is turned on if an appliance isn't working -- just one of those basic, simple tests one should try first before going on to more complicated stuff.

I think you're assuming more complicated problems are going on before you have done any troubleshooting of the basics.

Very high humidity can be an issue when curing soap, but in my experience humidity is not an issue when making soap. But even if it was, 75% humidity isn't all that terribly high, IMO. Where I live in the central United States, the humidity is 85 to 99% for a large part of the summer, and I can make soap just fine.

Okay, on to the more basic stuff.

I would expect your soap should have done fine by having the batter at 100F / 38C and using a CPOP method during saponification. But you've made an assumption that doing these things will automatically mean the soap definitely did get warm enough to gel.

Until you have more experience, I'd suggest you also verify the soap is in gel after a few hours of being in the warm oven. Sometimes soap does surprising things that are worth learning about. So check it next time -- does it eventually show a darker oval in the center of the molded soap? If so, this is the gelled portion of the soap. The lighter more opaque border around this oval center is ungelled soap. Sometimes soap will only partly gel, and the outer ungelled portions stay softer while the center core is firmer.

Please don't mix units in your recipe. You gave the fats as percentages and the NaOH and other ingredients as weights. When people do this (you aren't the only one), it takes a lot of fiddling around to reconstruct what the person actually did. Stick to weights for ALL ingredients and people will be better able to help you.

I'm guessing you used about 500 grams of fats and perhaps 10% superfat???? If so, don't overdo the superfat. I'd guess this recipe will be mild enough at 5% superfat. Less superfat will improve the lather and may make a harder bar, which might help you with your problems.

Another thing that might help you is to use a 33% to 35% lye concentration -- less water in other words. I wouldn't expect to have big problems with the soap being overly soft at 31% lye concentration, but this is a simple change that might be worth trying.

Did you pour the soap batter into the mold at emulsion or very light trace? Or did you pour the batter into the mold when it was thicker? If you're pouring at emulsion or v. light trace, try pouring the batter when it's a wee bit thicker.

DeeAnna

Thank you very much for taking your time to reply to this and I have made a note of all your comments (fair enough on the units).
And yes close to the 500 g but 5% superfat and it was light trace (I was trying to do the pointy layers from Treemarie).
In terms of the gelling, I can see that it did go through it but just after unmoulding it and cutting it. I will check for this in my next soap (I'm assuming that apart from checking that the oven is still warm I'd have to take the soap out and unmould it). I've had a couple of my first batches that partially gelled (fortunately =)
So I think what I can take from your comments is to try a higher lye concentration, check that the soap is in gel and pour at a bit thicker trace (don't mix units either).
Thank you again DeeAnna

 

[DeeAnna]

It's good you know about gelling and partial gel and all that. You've already done that homework. Good!

Yes, your summary of what I suggested sounds pretty accurate. I can't say for sure if these ideas will help, but it's worth a try.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I can't say I've heard anyone talk about virgin CO saponifying any differently than conventional CO. Hard to say.

Just a shot in the dark m

 

[Arimara]

Is your superfat supposed to be 11%? Everything looks fine and I'd suggest following DeAnna's advice. FYI, your current recipe does go past recommended cleansing values so I'd suggest keeping an observant eye on how that soap reacts with your skin. 35% coconute oil is generally considered overkill, especially for those of us who can't handle more than 20% in a soap.

Could the virgin coconut oil be the problem? My soap calculator doesn't have a listing for it, so I was just wondering if there is a SAP difference?

When I started out, I used virgin coconut oil. It doesn't make a difference in soap except with cost.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Is your superfat supposed to be 11%? Everything looks fine and I'd suggest following DeAnna's advice. FYI, your current recipe does go past recommended cleansing values so I'd suggest keeping an observant eye on how that soap reacts with your skin. 35% coconute oil is generally considered overkill, especially for those of us who can't handle more than 20% in a soap.


When I started out, I used virgin coconut oil. It doesn't make a difference in soap except with cost.

It was just a shot in the dark because your problem has me stumped.

 

[LiliKuenca]

It's good you know about gelling and partial gel and all that. You've already done that homework. Good!

Yes, your summary of what I suggested sounds pretty accurate. I can't say for sure if these ideas will help, but it's worth a try.

Thank you DeeAnna. I will definitely try with higher lye concentration. Thank you again!

 

[LiliKuenca]

It was just a shot in the dark because your problem has me stumped.

Thank you Todd. Your comment made me think and I did I little research and it seems like it doesn't make a difference as Arimara said. But yes it's strange. After 3 days the bar is ok-ish. If I squeeze it I leave a mark so still soft! I did exactly the same recipe 2 days before this one without the oven step and it's pretty hard 5 days later. So I'll just wait a bit longer.

Is your superfat supposed to be 11%? Everything looks fine and I'd suggest following DeAnna's advice. FYI, your current recipe does go past recommended cleansing values so I'd suggest keeping an observant eye on how that soap reacts with your skin. 35% coconute oil is generally considered overkill, especially for those of us who can't handle more than 20% in a soap.
When I started out, I used virgin coconut oil. It doesn't make a difference in soap except with cost.

Arimara, my superfat was 5%. Noted on the coconut oil %. I think I'm going to repeat this same recipe, and increasing my lye concentration.
Thank you very much for your help!

 

[Arimara]

...Arimara, my superfat was 5%. Noted on the coconut oil %. I think I'm going to repeat this same recipe, and increasing my lye concentration.
Thank you very much for your help!

Definitely double check your superfat. With the measurements given, your superfat was a bit higher than 5%.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Just checking, but you were using regular coconut oil that is solid at cool room temp right? Not fractionated which is a liquid?

 

[LiliKuenca]

Just checking, but you were using regular coconut oil that is solid at cool room temp right? Not fractionated which is a liquid?

Yes. Solid at room temperature.

 

[LiliKuenca]

Definitely double check your superfat. With the measurements given, your superfat was a bit higher than 5%.

Hi Arimara. I've double checked my superfat with soap calc and the soap making friend calculator and for both the superfat corresponds to 5% (I didn't do the calc manually though). I still haven't tried this with higher lye concentration but that's my next task.

 

[Arimara]

I wouldn't be pressing this if something wasn't wrong. The recipe above correct? You have too little lye in the recipe above for you soap to have a 5% superfat.