Soaping with unknown oil

[topofmurrayhill]

You generally have to contact the supplier or research online for the actual oils used.

Here we have a palm-based cooking oil, but mixed. So I emailed the company and they said it was palm and canola but wouldn't tell me the ratio - so with the saturated fat amounts for each oil and the amount for the mix itself, I could work out the actual mix of the two oils.

If the sap values for the two oils are pretty much the same, though, it's not critical. But if you have wildly different sap values you are more accurate with the measurements if you work it out

In principle you can't work out the oil proportions in shortening products by looking at saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated numbers. Hydrogenated oils are incorporated into all of them in one way or another, and the specific effect of hydrogenation is to change how saturated the fats are.

The rest is ETA:

The problem is that you don't know the degree of hydrogenation or how it was done. The process can affect the balance of poly / mono / fully saturated in many different ways. So there's a mystery process you can't account for in your calculations.

However, it occurs to me that you could possibly work it out for a zero trans-fat shortening, if a few assumptions are true. First would be that only non-hydrogenated and fully hydrogenated oils are used to make the product. No partially hydrogenated because that would introduce trans-fat.

For Crisco, for instance, you can find the proportion of non-hydrogenated palm and soybean oils to give you the correct proportion of poly and monounsaturated. Then figure the proportion of fully hydrogenated soybean oil to get the right amount of saturated fat.

It turns out that about 1/3 each soybean, palm and fully hydrogenated soy gives you the right numbers and a SAP value of .138 for Crisco.

I know the label says there are "partially hydrogenated palm and soybean oils" in it, which would normally screw up our calculations, but in this case it might not be so. Our second assumption is that "partially hydrogenated" is for labeling purposes how they describe non-hydrogenated oil trans-esterified with fully hydrogenated oil (meaning the fatty acids are redistributed between the two oils).

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That is true! The hydrogenation takes another stage in to this. I was thinking of oil mixes but hadn't considered that aspect

 

[shmaria]

What I got is 57% palm & 43% til/sesame. Can't quite believe it because sesame oil is sold at twice the cost of palm oil (labeled palm olein) here, and this particular oil/shortening is cheaper than either of the two.

"Hydrogenated vegetable fat used..."
"contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"

If I'm following you correctly, your shortening has palm and sesame oils and the mixture is 58% saturated fat. I've assumed the palm is hydrogenated and the sesame is not, but that's a guess.

So if Sesame is 15% saturated fat and hydrogenated palm is 90% saturated fat, can you figure out the proportions needed of the two oils to make a mixture that is 58% saturated?

 

[TeresaT]

Hi,
I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.

@topofmurrayhill, thanks, but are you sure its the same oil? I actually wrote to soapcalc asking them if they could add the oil to their list and got a reply that they didn't have enough info on the oil to add it.
Any suggestions on lye percentage and oil combinations? I've got coconut oil, sunflower, palm (we get two kinds, a hard white palm oil with sesame oil mixed in, and a liquid one that's labelled palmolein), rice bran, olive pomace and castor (also raw/crude) in stock.

When I clicked on the link provided, the wikipedia page gave a list of "Other Names" and one of the names this product is known as in India (which I found rather funny since that's where you are) is Mowrah. As has been pointed out already, Mowrah Butter is on SoapCalc and Soapee.

Shmaria, if you requested SoapCalc to add it to thier list of oils/butters and were told they didn't have enough information about it, they probably didn't realize that it was an alternative name for Mowrah butter.

 

[shmaria]

Just fyi, India has 22 official languages, and over a thousand unofficial ones, so we've got dozens of names for plants and oils. Also, when phonetic sounds are written in English, it varies according to the writer's ear & tongue (which is how the Brits turned Mumbai into Bombay and Moolliga-thanni became mulligatawny!)
We don't have a name for this oil or the tree in my mother tongue (Konkani) , but in Kannada, the state language, it's called Hippennae (the tree is Hippae). I speak 3 Indian languages, but had never heard the name of this oil because we've never used it, and it isn't available commercially. Only found out about this oil when I told the mill owner I was buying the castor oil for soap, and he suggested this one. He was curious about my buying 2 litres of raw castor oil because the villagers don't use castor oil for soap, they cook it till it darkens and apply it directly to the scalp.

I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.

When I clicked on the link provided, the wikipedia page gave a list of "Other Names" and one of the names this product is known as in India (which I found rather funny since that's where you are) is Mowrah.

 

[TeresaT]

Just fyi, India has 22 official languages, and over a thousand unofficial ones, so we've got dozens of names for plants and oils. Also, when phonetic sounds are written in English, it varies according to the writer's ear & tongue (which is how the Brits turned Mumbai into Bombay and Moolliga-thanni became mulligatawny!)
We don't have a name for this oil or the tree in my mother tongue (Konkani) , but in Kannada, the state language, it's called Hippennae (the tree is Hippae). I speak 3 Indian languages, but had never heard the name of this oil because we've never used it, and it isn't available commercially. Only found out about this oil when I told the mill owner I was buying the castor oil for soap, and he suggested this one. He was curious about my buying 2 litres of raw castor oil because the villagers don't use castor oil for soap, they cook it till it darkens and apply it directly to the scalp.

I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I thought about deleting that after I posted it because it sounded condescending. It was not meant to be at all. I just thought it was funny. It is also proof of my American ignorance. I knew (know, actually) India is a huge country with a diverse population and multiple languages. However, I had no idea it had that many official languages, as well as a bunch of unofficial ones. Thanks for the education!!

In America we don't have an "official" language (although many Americans would like to make it English) and there are a large number of other languages spoken. However, those languages are usually "pocketed" in small communities where "like seeks like." I cannot imaging going 100 miles in a direction and not knowing the language in my native country. With that many languages spoken in India, that possibility seems to me to be very real.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, that proportion sounds right. Keep in mind we're making some guesses about the oils involved, so this might not be the actual makeup for this particular product. But it's a start.

I agree it doesn't make sense that the shortening should be less expensive than either of the oils in the shortening, but there are a couple of reasons why this might be true.

The manufacturer may be able to use lower grades of oils to make shortening vs. the grade required for packaging and selling the pure oils. Also, the prices for large amounts of commodities such as edible oil are often much lower than retail prices. The prices you see in the store for an oil in a small container are usually a lot more than what a large commercial processor would pay for a tank car of the same oil.

Palm olein is not the same as palm oil, by the way. Olein is the name for the high oleic fats after they are separated from the stearin, which is the high stearic fats. Palm stearin is more valuable as a feedstock than olein, so stearin is usually more expensive than olein.

What I got is 57% palm & 43% til/sesame. Can't quite believe it because sesame oil is sold at twice the cost of palm oil (labeled palm olein) here, and this particular oil/shortening is cheaper than either of the two.

 

[kchaystack]

I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.

I am going to guess some of the color difference comes from refining. Sort of like shea butter. Raw shea is kind of a dirty yellow color (usually again this can differ) but refined is a much lighter and more off white.

If you are getting your mahua right from the press, it might not have been thru anything more than that.

There could also be minor variance from the harvest locations.

 

[shmaria]

Oh, no offense taken, Teresa. Just thought I'd try to explain why it's such a task for us to find the western/English counterpart to our native species. There are also instances where the name of a plant or fruit gets passed back and forth between languages and next thing you know it means something entirely different. Eg: was on a home remedy page that listed plantain leaves as a medicinal herb, looked it up and realised they were referring to a short, leafy, medicinal plant - In India it's a banana. In Australia a bandicoot is a marsupial, in India it's a rat the size of a small dog!

I'm sorry if I offended you. .

 

[DeeAnna]

In the US, the word "plantain" also refers to two plants -- a leafy weed or medicinal plant (depending on your point of view) and a type of starchy banana. The leafy plant name is said "plan-tin" with the accent on the first syllable. The banana is "plan-tayn" with the accent on the second.

 

[Rani Muthu]

Hi,
I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (Madhuca longifolia - Wikipedia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.

We’re you able to find out lye calculation for Mahua oil? A nearby shop is having this oil. we use it for lighting lamps with seasame oil. But I can’t find it in soap cal and other calculators. Are you using this oil and how much ?

 

[varshamanick]

We’re you able to find out lye calculation for Mahua oil? A nearby shop is having this oil. we use it for lighting lamps with seasame oil. But I can’t find it in soap cal and other calculators. Are you using this oil and how much ?

After a lot of research, I concluded Mahua oil is Mowrah butter.
With reference to the fatty acid value comparison between Soapcalc's Mowrah butter and Wikipedia page for Mahua oil.

Soap Calc for Mowrah butter: palmitic: 24, stearic: 22, oleic: 36, linoleic: 15
Wikipedia for Mahua oil: Fatty acid composition (acid, %) : palmitic (c16:0) : 24.5, stearic (c18:0) : 22.7, oleic (c18:1) : 37.0, linoleic (c18:2) : 14.3

PS:
Mahua oil is called as illipai oil in Tamil (You might know, your name sounds like a Tamil name). So I believed illipe butter is mahua oil for quite sometime. But when I googled illipe butter, it's wikipedia page tells us that Mowrah butter is from Madhuca LONGIFOLIA and Illipe butter is from Madhuca LATIFOLIA. Now I don't know the difference between Longifolia and Latifolia, soap calc has completely different fatty acid profile for Illipe butter and Mowrah butter. Still confused in that area.

I am new to soap making, I saw a soap profile in instgram from Hyderabad,India using Mahua oil as one of their ingredients, thats when I started to research on Mahua oil. I think I need some more research to formulate a recipe with mahua oil. It seems to provide a lot of benefits to the skin.

 

[sang90]

Hi,

what is SAP value for Mahua oil ?

 

[varshamanick]

Hi,

what is SAP value for Mahua oil ?

Mahua oil is also called as Mowrah butter and infinite other regional names.
Soapcalc says
Mowrah Butter NaOH - 0.138 SAP

 

[sang90]

Thanks for the info ... Are you sure mahual oil is the same as Mowrah butter
Mahua oil we have been using is a dark golden yellow, whereas mowrah butter is somewhat creamy white.

 

[varshamanick]

I am new to soap making. But I have used this for quite a few batches now. The soap turned out great. Is this the colour of the Mahua oil you have?

There is refined and unrefined. Be sure to check that with your supplier.

 

[sang90]

Hi, yes its the same colour ...
We get it directly from the oil mill and its always in a thick liquid state, surprisingly they never heard of mowrah or mahua butter

 

[Pooja H.]

Hi, thankyou everyone who commented on this thread, it has been majorly helpful for me since I also learnt to avoid palmolein for beginner recipes and about other locally available cooking oils (I'm planning to make my first cold process soap soon n am gathering info currently), I was searching for Mahua butter SAP value and found this and now I joined this site as well.
I had a question, how much is the recommended % of Mahua butter can I use in my soap? Also I read a research paper on antimicrobial soap where they used Mahua butter and mentioned that it goes Rancid quickly, is that true for you? Thanks in advance

For reference I'm planning to use the following oils since they're easily available and are cheap, and make a small batch first.
•Sunflower oil (hydrogenated/cooking oil)
•coconut oil (unrefined/we make it at home)
•castor oil
•palm oil (Rucha cooking oil as suggested above)
•Mahua oil (I had bought a 25ml sample to check it out from a supplier)

 

[varshamanick]

Hi, thankyou everyone who commented on this thread, it has been majorly helpful for me since I also learnt to avoid palmolein for beginner recipes and about other locally available cooking oils (I'm planning to make my first cold process soap soon n am gathering info currently), I was searching for Mahua butter SAP value and found this and now I joined this site as well.
I had a question, how much is the recommended % of Mahua butter can I use in my soap? Also I read a research paper on antimicrobial soap where they used Mahua butter and mentioned that it goes Rancid quickly, is that true for you? Thanks in advance

For reference I'm planning to use the following oils since they're easily available and are cheap, and make a small batch first.
•Sunflower oil (hydrogenated/cooking oil)
•coconut oil (unrefined/we make it at home)
•castor oil
•palm oil (Rucha cooking oil as suggested above)
•Mahua oil (I had bought a 25ml sample to check it out from a supplier)

Hey, Welcome to the forum.
I made a test batch with 10,15, 20 % Mahua Oil. All three worked fine. 20% was harder comparatively. It did not accelerate my trace. But with respect to Rancidity, I made it with 5% SF. It has been 2 Months. No DOS till now. I used "Mowrah Butter" in soap calc for Mahua Oil.

The cooking oil available at our Indian grocery stores are all Palmolein (I think you mean Ruchi Gold), not Palm Oil.
You can buy palm oil from soap makers/ suppliers mostly.

 

[Pooja H.]

Hey, Welcome to the forum.
I made a test batch with 10,15, 20 % Mahua Oil. All three worked fine. 20% was harder comparatively. It did not accelerate my trace. But with respect to Rancidity, I made it with 5% SF. It has been 2 Months. No DOS till now. I used "Mowrah Butter" in soap calc for Mahua Oil.

The cooking oil available at our Indian grocery stores are all Palmolein (I think you mean Ruchi Gold), not Palm Oil.
You can buy palm oil from soap makers/ suppliers mostly.

Thankyou for replying. If you don't mind, may I ask what is SF?
And is it okay if I used the Ruchi Gold oil for making soap or should i use some other oil instead?