Soaping with Pomace, Woes of a Kiwi

[Nikolye]

Hello-
I'm in NZ and Kiwi soapers have it hard with all the best forums being US based. We have to read and weep on a reg. Having places like brambleberry or soap-Making resource is what we dream about! We have suppliers, limited supplies and at a much much higher cost.

I as most soapers here buy grocery store olive oil on sale. Its cheaper than the suppliers sell it. I'm starting to wonder if this is because its inconsistent quality or just because they can afford to. I have had some batches go off recently so i'm pretty sure its the quality.

The second problem is i use alot of olive oil and because my grocery store is rural and overpriced i'm constantly out until i can get a sale or to another store to hope for a sale. The answer to this is clearly Pomice from a supplier.

What is your general opinion of soaping with pomice (other than the color annoyance) Pomice is almost always chemically extracted, this is why i didn't purchase it previously.

Now i have to make a choice....
1.constant battle of price and inconsistent quality buying 1 liter "sale oil"
2.buy expensive bulk extra virgin from the supplier as no one seems to have grade A
3.buy pomice at a slightly cheaper price than the grocery store, from a supplier however it is green, will contain sediment and is chemically extracted.

This is all personal choice, but I'd be keen on other peoples personal choices, sometimes i find it hard to go with the less natural option as i'm one of "those" people...but cost is a serious issue for me right now.

Cheers.
nk

 

[Nao]

Do you mean pomace olive oil? In that case it's fine to use, I think most people here use that or whatever is cheapest. I have no idea what kind of olive oil I'm using except that it's the cheapest at my local supermarket. Lol.

Update: I just went to check on one of my bottles of olive oil and it basically says it's 50/50 refined/virgin olive oil. My soaps usually turns out off white and I'm happy with that, if I want it whiter I add a colorant, no big deal.

I also believe consensus here is that it's some sort of myth that soap suppliers' oils is of better quality than the grocery stores'.

And I feel your pain! Luckily I live in Europe and have plenty of good suppliers on hand but it always feels like I'm missing out on a lot of great stuff that the US suppliers have and not the European.

 

[Millie]

Pomace traces faster but I use it more often to keep costs down. I haven't noticed a difference in feel between different OOs in finished soap, though I don't know if that would hold true in high OO soaps.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

Any chance you can find rice bran oil?
It's quite cheap and easy to find here in Australia.
It has similar properties to olive oil.
I replaced most of my olive oil in recipes with rice bran.
Too much and you'll get squishy disaster like I did last week haha. I used it at 50%. But if you keep it at 20-30 together with other hard oils like coconut it makes great soap.

I'm having hard time finding pomace. I can't find it in supermarkets. Fruit shops sell it in 4l tins, but what am I going to do with it if I end up hating in the soap.
Can't use it for cooking as I only use EVOO and peanut oil.

 

[Nikolye]

Yes, i have heard Pomice is hard to find in AU, I buy it sometimes for soap because its in 3-4l jugs too, but i stopped as its chemically extracted and in my noob years heard so many bad things from other soapers. I can't afford organic oils so i try to at least stick to non chemical extraction... but we have to do what we have to do eh?! Im not to worried about going through it as i can always use it for my personal bars but I'm making a lot more soap now for other people and olive oil is just so exxy. I have recently started subbing rice bran, Its $6 per liter at my local as apposed to OO @ $12. I have only kept it to 10/15% very helpful for sure, but as i don't use palm i struggle to get that hard veggie bar when i "sub" out my olive oil which i usually use at like 40- 50%. But thats just me still playing with ratios in non palm veg bars

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

Have you had a look at these guys?

http://davis.nz/products/fat-oil-margarine/fats-oils-margarines

 

[fuzz-juzz]

How about soy if palm isn't an option?
I've never used it and I'm not sure if it's good in soap.
Are you using butters at all?
I had good success with CO and butters when trying to create palm free bars.

 

[kchaystack]

Soy oil is not a good soaping oil. It had too much linoleic and linolenic fatty acids, and can cause DOS

 

[Kittish]

Have you had a look at these guys?

http://davis.nz/products/fat-oil-margarine/fats-oils-margarines

I see high oleic safflower oil on their product list, that might be a decent partial substitute for olive oil.

Their vegetable shortening also indicates that it's sourced from "Certified Sustainable Palm Oil" if environmental concerns are your reason for avoiding palm.

 

[Nikolye]

Have you had a look at these guys?

http://davis.nz/products/fat-oil-margarine/fats-oils-margarines

No i have not, i will have to inquire on their prices and see if they do slightly smaller batches as i don't have storage for 25kg type amounts.
Thanks for that, another source/option/idea is always appreciated!!!

How about soy if palm isn't an option?
I've never used it and I'm not sure if it's good in soap.
Are you using butters at all?
I had good success with CO and butters when trying to create palm free bars.

I use shea butter mostly as my coco butter source has skyrocketed and its very difficult for me to keep it in my veg bars, i used to use = parts coco/shea in all my veggie bars :cry:

 

[penelopejane]

Hi
I think it is more than a personal choice if you are supplying friends or even thinking of selling. In Australia it seems from my research that for my friends and for the young (20-30 year olds who have the disposable income) there is a lot of resistance to using palm or pomace in soap. If you can't eat it you can't put it on your skin. I would not use pomace (because of the chemicals) or palm (because of the environment and orangutans) in my soap.

So maybe research NZ and find out what people think there. Ours is a very different market than in the US and I imagine yours is too.

To find a cheap supply look for 3-4 Litre tins. If you have to go to Countdown and wait for their specials use ROE Rosemary Oleoresin Extract which will extend the life of your oil. If you keep it somewhere cool it will last for a couple of years. Our edible oils in the supermarket are stamped with a best before date. Are yours?

Also ring one of the olive oil farms on the net close to you and see if they will do a deal if you bring your own container. I have a supply for pesticide free EVOO cheaply using this method.

A&NZ Food standards say if soap was a food you couldn't label "Olive Pomace Oil" as "Olive oil". Soap is not a food but I, my friends and just about everyone I've talked to won't buy any soap where they suspect pomace is used. But then again there are heaps of palm oil on the market and you couldn't trust someone to say pomace on the label so who knows who uses it.

 

[cherrycoke216]

Maybe try soy wax to harden the soft soap?
It's a different animal than soy bean oil.

And try pure olive oil as an option to sub out extra virgin olive oil.
ETA: oops, you said no one seems to have grade A. Grade A is pure olive oil, right?

Rice bran is a great choice, too. Sweet almond, high oleic sunflower, high oleic safflower might be some other oils to consider.

 

[user 20684]

I recently finished a 15 litre carton of "pomace" olive oil from Davis Foods. It wasn't green or sludgy. Their website says it is a mixture of virgin and refined olive oils. I can't remember what it cost, but it worked out a reasonable price per litre. My soaps came out pale and creamy.
I found this guy on Trade Me last week www.ilovesoap.co.nz. His olive oil seems reasonably priced. I haven't bought anything off him, so I don't know anything about him. He may be somewhere on the forum

 

[earlene]

I use pomace OO and yes, it is a darker green and does trace a lot faster. It is available to me at my small town grocery store. Before they started carrying it, the only place I saw it besides soap suppliers was in Italian stores in New York (I don't live there, though.)

For me, I like to use pomace as a portion of the OO in a recipe when I want it to trace faster. For Castile soap 50% pomace and 50% regular OO allows for a pretty fast tracing recipe. In fact, too fast for intricate swirls, if I want to swirl. Also there is no sediment in the bottles of pomace that my local store carries. So that's my experience with pomace OO. Oh, and for me the price of pomace and regular OO is very close to the same price. I don't use EVOO in soap because where I live, it is the most expensive grade of OO.

I agree that if you don't like the idea of pomace based on how it is extracted, then you probably won't want to use the soap, and that if you sell your soap, then you need to know if your customers feel the same. If some do, and some don't, then you can make sure the ones who don't can have soap with pomace, while making the non-pomace soap for the more finicky customers. And price your product accordingly, of course.

As for the finished color of soap with pomace, for me it hasn't really come out green, but if it did, I wouldn't mind. However, I notice that both it and Rice Bran Oil, which I do like very much in soap, does effect colorants more than clearer lighter oils. So if adding colorants, some adjustments must be made. I have not perfected colors, so have very little helpful information about how to adjust for that, though.

 

[Dahila]

the only pomace I found in Canada is mix of pomace oo and canola , people do not rid the labels , they get exited for the sale .....I used cheap extra virgin oo and my soap was gross color even with addition of TD

 

[amd]

Soy oil is not a good soaping oil. It had too much linoleic and linolenic fatty acids, and can cause DOS

I used soybean oil for well over a year as a 50/50 split with my olive oil (total 40%). at the time I was using OO from a very expensive source, I have since found better sources and switched. I no longer use the soybean oil because my OO is now right at the same price point and OO is the better quality oil.

Soybean oil does make a nice soap, although I feel it is a bit "looser" compared to my non soybean oil bars. I'm not sure how to explain it better, the bars aren't slimey in the sense of 100% OO bars, but feel slippery...

I have many soybean oil bars (I try to keep at least one bar from each batch in my personal stash) pushing the 3 year mark with no DOS. I personally feel DOS depends on your oil sources, storage, and soap practices, and not so much on the individual oil itself. That said, if you use soybean oil, make sure that you buy it in quantities that you can use in a timely manner - I ordered and cycled my oils out in 2-3 months time.

(sorry to hijack the thread in this slightly off topic post. I just didn't want soybean oil to be shunned if it is a decent substitute.)

 

[dixiedragon]

I second the suggestion of rice bran, and I also wanted to suggest high oleic sunflower. It might be worthwhile to just call a local restaurant supply store and ask them what oils they carry for what prices and then work from there? Here in the US they are sometimes called "cash and carry". I've actually found it difficult to find them just as "restaurant supply" b/c that covers a lot of territory - such as companies that sell equipment. So you may need to call a few before you find a restaurant supply that sells fats.

 

[Nikolye]

I really appreciate this, such an interesting topic. I actually think very few people i know or sell to would know about the extraction process of the olive oil. I'm a black sheep within the people i know and very few people will care or understand about cosmetics/organics/extractions and the like. all they know or care about is its home made and much cleaner than the shops. However that doesn't mean my customer/friend base won't grow as my soaping does. I will lean towards finding a better supplier or local olive oil producer as mentioned. Until then i'll do some partial substitutions with rice bran and look into high oleic sunflower and just keep on as I was buying 1 liters or 3 liters of grade A when its on sale as my suppliers don't seem to sell it. But i don't think i'll shy completely away from pomace if its so much cheaper as i do want to make a dirt cheap bar anyone can afford thats still cleaner than store bought. Lucky me asked a former boss if she could get some olive oil through her suppliers and she is hopefully able to get organic oil at the price i'd pay for pomice if we both buy some! fingers crossed.

 

[earlene]

I second the suggestion of rice bran, and I also wanted to suggest high oleic sunflower. It might be worthwhile to just call a local restaurant supply store and ask them what oils they carry for what prices and then work from there? Here in the US they are sometimes called "cash and carry". I've actually found it difficult to find them just as "restaurant supply" b/c that covers a lot of territory - such as companies that sell equipment. So you may need to call a few before you find a restaurant supply that sells fats.

Very good suggestion, dixiedragon. Another way to find Restaurant Food Service companies is to speak to the manager of local restaurants and ask them. They will know the names of local food service suppliers from whom they buy oil and where to look for or call to ask about buying from them as an individual. Undoubtedly they can give you a phone number to call or at least the name of a couple of food service vendors to call.

 

[Nikolye]

such good ideas all round. thanks as always.