Soaping 101 liquid soapmaking video?

[Susie]

I only add my EOs to warm diluted soap because I am too impatient to wait until it is cool.

 

[IrishLass]

I dilute 16 oz. of my paste at a time and store it in canning jars at room temp unscented until I need to re-fill one of my 4 oz. pump bottles. That way, I can scent with whatever I'm in the mood for at the time.


TVivian- I had to do a little digging in the MSDS to find CAS #'s of things so that I could Google them, but it looks like 80% of WSP's modifier is made up of Polyethylene Glycol Trimethylnonyl Ether, i.e., "Tergitol", which is a non-ionic surfactant (the other 20% ingredients in it seem to be proprietary, though). http://www.crafters-choice.com/PDFs/ProductDocs/Crafter's-Choice-FO-and-EO-Modifier-MSDS.pdf Maybe DeeAnna or some of the more chemically-minded can tell us more about it, since I am not familiar with it. I'm very curious what those other 20% of ingredients are.

For what it is worth, PS-80 is also a non-ionic surfactant and emulsifier.


IrishLass

 

[TVivian]

I probably should have scented just a little at a time. I made enough to fill 3-16oz glass pump bottles. One for each bathroom and the kitchen. They're only for me so I just scented it all with what I like. Won't make that mistake again

I'm adding more water a little at a time and it seems to be smoothing out. Thank you for looking into the FO modifier ingredients. I'm going to put PS80 on my next order!

 

[doriettefarm]

I've never added a FO modifier or PS80 to my liquid soap but had a similar experience with one particular FO. When I added this FO to my diluted soap paste it just turned into snotty jelly! I ended up diluting it much further and using it in a foamer bottle.

 

[soapysarah]

I made my first liquid soap from soaping101's recipe, except that I substituted 50% glycerin for the water. (I have been making cp soaps for a couple of years.) It seems fine but isn't crystal clear, although it is 'cured'. I had to cook it for much longer to get the paste clear. It works really well and I am diluting and scenting in small batches.

Would diluting the liquid soap paste with coffee work; has anyone tried this? I was just wondering as a cp coffee soap works fine, but then it is saponified in cp soap.

 

[Susie]

I would not dilute with coffee for a couple of reasons:

1. Coffee can spoil, just like any other "non water" liquid.
2. Coffee does have oils that can and will go rancid, not to mention coating the inside of your pump bottle and pump mechanism.

You can, however, use coffee to substitute for batch water (water that is mixed with the lye in the paste stage). I think the resulting soap is ugly, but to each their own.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree with Susie -- I would only use coffee to make the soap paste. Soap paste is the KOH equivalent of making regular NaOH bar soap, and we all pretty much know coffee in a bar soap is okay.

Once you dilute the soap paste, that is a whole 'nother deal. You're going to be adding at least the same weight of dilution liquid to the paste, and often considerably more. That much coffee (or aloe or green tea or fruit juice or _____) adds a fair amount of "bug food" to the diluted soap and will reduce the naturally alkaline pH of the soap itself. These changes will make it less likely the diluted soap can prevent microbial growth.

I personally don't think this is wise, but if you are determined to do it, then I would strongly recommend using a preservative that can tolerate the high pH of soap. One of the few preservatives that can do this is liquid Germall Plus.

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

I'll preface this by saying that I am yet to make my first LS (although my KOH just arrived, so I'm excited to take the plunge).
I understand what was said above about not using non-water, but what about coming at it from another direction and using infused oils? For example, I have a big jar of coffee-infused OO that I use for lotions, along with several herb-infused OOs and RBOs...does anyone have any experience using something like this in LS? I have used them in bar soaps before.

Also, I generally use a pyrex jug for melting my oils, and mixing my soaps. From reading this thread, it seems that it's important to have a tight-fitting lid, but obviously that's not possible with pyrex. Would covering it in cling film (saran wrap for the Americans among us :wave: ) work? Or is the heat generated high enough to melt the wrap? I figure I'll probably have to go buy a new (second hand lol) pot for LS, but I'm a bit impatient and want to start NOW lol.

TIA
Matt

 

[Susie]

1) You are making a wash off product. Using infused oils for anything other than color seems a waste to me.
2) You are brand new at making liquid soap. I would use the most economical oils and stuff possible.
3) Do NOT use Pyrex for anything other than weighing oils. I would not even put it in the microwave to melt oils. There is a picture on the forum somewhere of someone's Pyrex melted in their microwave with oils in it. You should NEVER, EVER use Pyrex or glass to mix lye or soap batter in.

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

1) You are making a wash off product. Using infused oils for anything other than color seems a waste to me.
2) You are brand new at making liquid soap. I would use the most economical oils and stuff possible.
3) Do NOT use Pyrex for anything other than weighing oils. I would not even put it in the microwave to melt oils. There is a picture on the forum somewhere of someone's Pyrex melted in their microwave with oils in it. You should NEVER, EVER use Pyrex or glass to mix lye or soap batter in.

Thank you for the quick reply Susie
Colour was the reason I was asking about using the infused oils, sorry I should have been more clear about that. And don't worry, I won't be risking any of them on my first batch

As for the pyrex...wow, I had no idea about that. I'm sure when I first started soaping that I read/watched advice to use plastic, glass or pyrex...but maybe I was just following bad advice. Luckily I've never had a problem so far. I don't use the microwave, I always use a double boiler method. And I never mix my lye in pyrex, that's always done in plastic. I've been melting my oils in pyrex then adding lye solution to that before stickblending in the jug. Guess I'd better go buy another pot, specifically for soaping.

Thanks again for your help :wave:
Matt

 

[Susie]

The easiest thing about liquid soap is coloring it. You can use the colorants meant for MP that are available at local craft stores. I am sure you can even use some of the food colors. Just color small amounts of diluted soap with one drop at the time until you get the desired shade. Remember that all colors will meld with the natural amber shade of the liquid soap. So blue + amber = green. Red + amber = orange. To get a true blue or red, you have to add more colorant.

I also love that I can use my citrus EOs in liquid soap. So I can use orange EO with a drop or two of red colorant and have a lovely orange soap for the foamer. Or mint EO with a couple of drops of blue colorant yields a lovely green/mint soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

As far as a tight fitting lid -- maybe you're thinking liquid soap requires an exhausting stretch of cooking the paste over heat? If you check Irish Lass' procedure again you'll see she lets the saponifying soap paste do its thing off the heat, so there's not going to be a lot of evaporation going on. Just cover the pot with its lid -- or I suppose you could add a bit of plastic food wrap for insurance.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As I understand it, the non-water is for the dilution, not for the paste - I think when making the paste, non-water should be okay. But someone please correct me if I am wrong.

For after time, I would just go simple in generally - even with the better methods I was stood wondering what on earth was going on!

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

Thanks again for all your advice. So, I went ahead and took the plunge...and, well, not quite the raging success I was hoping for. I'm not sure what went wrong, but I have a couple of possible ideas...

I used Soapcalc, with the 90% KOH box ticked, as that was what my supplier claims is the purity of my KOH. 65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castor...3% SF, 3:1 Water:Lye. I only wanted to make a small batch since it was my first try, so I used 100g total oils. Soapcalc gave me 22.18g KOH and 66.53g Water. I cross-checked the numbers with SBM advanced and they gave numbers that were close to these. I used 22.1g each of HOH and water, and 44.4g glycerin.

KOH dissolved totally in the water within a few seconds. I then added that solution to the glycerin, which quickly went from thick and clear to a greenish-yellow, then a rich amber colour. I added that to my warm oils (150F) and began "stabmixing" (thanks TEG).

Here's where things started to go awry. The batter quickly went to a dark caramel colour butit didn't thicken. At all. I was watching the clock, waiting for all the magical changes I'd read about, but nothing. After about 20 minutes of blending and stirring, the temp had dropped to about 100F and still no thickening. I stuck it back on the double boiler and got it back up to about 140F, and continued blending the bejesus out of it. After an hour, it had reached basically a medium trace, looking kinda like a thick dark gravy.

At this point I gave up, covered it in cling wrap and hid it in the airing cupboard...basically took the "outta sight, outta mind" approach. I checked it an hour later and it had thickened a little, wasn't runny, but still very soft. And it zapped. Checked again at 5hrs, doesn't appear to have any physical change, and it still zaps. Although it took a couple of licks before I got zapped...wishful thinking, or progress?

So now, I'm gonna leave it a bit longer, check back in the morning, and see if anything's changed.

My thoughts on possible causes... I was using a glycerin that I've never used before. A supermarket brand that I'd intended to use in other products. I believe glycerin is glycerin, but this also contains a preservative, so I'm wondering if this could have caused the problems I had.

Alternatively, I read a few comments in another thread which suggest that a small batch can be problematic. Should I have gone bigger?

 

[Susie]

How warm was your KOH/water/glycerin when you added it to the warm oils? KOH soap takes a while to come to trace (30 min sometimes) if you are not soaping hot enough. The glycerin should have helped speed trace. I doubt the preservative had any effect.

The good news is that it should be soap by morning if you at least got it emulsified. Liquid soap is forgiving that way.

I would try a larger batch next time. I use at least 500 gm of oil per batch. It just takes that much to keep the head of my SB immersed.

 

[tbeck3579]

At the request of Susie and DeeAnna, here is more detailed info on how I make my glycerin liquid soap. I hope you're seated comfortably! lol

IrishLass

Awesome video! Thanks so much for taking the time to teach. I have no idea how you held the camera and made soap at the same time -- multi-talented :clap:. When I was selling on ebay I had to take a lot of still pictures and couldn't hold the camera as still as you did. I ended up buying a cheap tripod at an auction. Great job with the text and the editing!

 

[DeeAnna]

What Susie said. Small batches like yours have a lot of surface area to volume, so the saponification reaction is not as efficient at keeping the soap batter warm enough. Next time, yeah ... a bit larger batch might be less troublesome for you.

That said, your instinct to add some heat was good ... and as Susie said, you can also apply a dab of patience mixed with a large dose of benign neglect. The batter, once emulsified, is still saponifying even at 100 degrees, just more slowly.

Also if your fats were mostly liquid oils (lots of oleic and linoleic acids), the batter can take awhile to come to trace and thicken up. If you used a mix of fats including some solid fats (more myristic, lauric, palmitic, and/or stearic acids) such as Irish Lass' recipe with coconut oil, the batter should come to trace a little faster.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I royally messed up my first attempts (look good until I prodded the paste and found the liquid underneath it!) so I ended up heating the oven up and leaving it in there over night - make your soap in Stainless Steel, just in case!

Next time I hope to actually get it to work first time, but I will be amazed if I can.

 

[IrishLass]

Awesome video! Thanks so much for taking the time to teach. I have no idea how you held the camera and made soap at the same time -- multi-talented :clap:. When I was selling on ebay I had to take a lot of still pictures and couldn't hold the camera as still as you did. I ended up buying a cheap tripod at an auction. Great job with the text and the editing!

Using the best Robert De Niro voice from Taxi Driver that this lass is able to muster...ahem (clearing throat), 'Are you talking to me?" If so, then I'm going to have to bring out my best impersonation of a teenager trying to defend herself when caught with seemingly incriminating, but completely coincidental evidence.... (ahem) 'You got the wrong person! I know how it looks, but I swear, it wasn't me!' lol

Seriously, though, I truly had nothing to do with the video (as explained in post #8 ). That was/is Carrie Peterson's video (she's 3bees~1flower on the Dish forum). The 65% OO/25% CO/10% Castor glycerin recipe is also Carrie's recipe.

Trust me, I'm fairly certain that you don't ever want to see me try to video myself while making soap. lol I've never attempted it, mind you, but just based on the difficult enough time I have trying taking still pictures at intervals while soaping, it's enough to put me off the whole video idea. If I had a camera man or woman, maybe I'd think about it, but I don't know how easy it would be to find one willing to work so late at night (many of my soapy sessions take place when everyone is fast asleep). lol

I royally messed up my first attempts (look good until I prodded the paste and found the liquid underneath it!) so I ended up heating the oven up and leaving it in there over night - make your soap in Stainless Steel, just in case!

Next time I hope to actually get it to work first time, but I will be amazed if I can.

If I can do it, I have every confidence that you can do it, too, Gent (and that goes for everyone else as well!). The method- using the steps I've described in this thread- continues to be quite forgiving and fool-proof for me.


IrishLass

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

How warm was your KOH/water/glycerin when you added it to the warm oils? KOH soap takes a while to come to trace (30 min sometimes) if you are not soaping hot enough. The glycerin should have helped speed trace. I doubt the preservative had any effect.

The good news is that it should be soap by morning if you at least got it emulsified. Liquid soap is forgiving that way.

I would try a larger batch next time. I use at least 500 gm of oil per batch. It just takes that much to keep the head of my SB immersed.

Silly me, I didn't take the temp of the KOH solution. I don't know why, since I'd just done the oil temp...I'm putting it down to a blonde moment lol. As soon as the KOH was dissolved, I added it to the glycerin, stirred for about 2 minutes til it was all mixed, then added to the oils.

Unfortunately, it is now morning (a little over 20 hours since I stopped) and still no soap. The batter is definitely thicker than last night, although still stirrable, and it still zaps. Side note: I've never been zapped before this, and I'm wondering...are there degrees of zap? The first test of this soap batter, the zap was instantaneous and very sharp, but this morning, it took a few licks before I got what I thought was a milder zap. It seems to me that it's probably just wishful thinking, or does the zap get less intense the further along the process goes?

What Susie said. Small batches like yours have a lot of surface area to volume, so the saponification reaction is not as efficient at keeping the soap batter warm enough. Next time, yeah ... a bit larger batch might be less troublesome for you.

That said, your instinct to add some heat was good ... and as Susie said, you can also apply a dab of patience mixed with a large dose of benign neglect. The batter, once emulsified, is still saponifying even at 100 degrees, just more slowly.

Also if your fats were mostly liquid oils (lots of oleic and linoleic acids), the batter can take awhile to come to trace and thicken up. If you used a mix of fats including some solid fats (more myristic, lauric, palmitic, and/or stearic acids) such as Irish Lass' recipe with coconut oil, the batter should come to trace a little faster.

I was using Irish Lass' recipe, so 25% Coconut Oil. Thanks for confirming my suspicion about the small batch, I poured it into the narrowest jug I had in an effort to cover the SB head, and it only just managed to. I hate wasting supplies, so always start out with a small batch, but in this case it looks to have backfired. Win some, lose some :roll:

I'm going with your "benign neglect" technique lol. It's hidden away in the cupboard again, and I'll check it in another 24hrs. This has now become my long-term experiment...I'm just gonna let it sit, and see what happens. Hopefully, soap happens. Eventually.

Thank you all again for your help. You are what makes this forum such a great place.

Cheers,
Matt