Soapers Not Using Chelators.

[ResolvableOwl]

Clever girl … challenge voters can't smell the rancidity, and you can ditch it just after you've made the photos.

Annoying that it cost you four batches of soap, otherwise great without doubt, just to find that out.

 

[TheGecko]

I like your label' its shortened but precise.

Thank you. It conforms with all labeling standards...from descending order of predominance, to font type and size AND it fits on an address label.

 

[DeeAnna]

...[can] Rancid Lard could accelerate soap recipe?...

It's less about rancidity and more about the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the fat.

A triglyceride fat molecule is made from 4 building blocks -- 3 fatty acid "legs" attached to 1 glycerin "backbone". When a fat molecule reacts with oxygen -- in other words, when the fat oxidizes -- one or more of the fatty acids breaks away from the glycerin.

These "loose" fatty acids (aka "free fatty acids" or FFAs) will react almost instantly with lye solution to form soap, because the hardest step of breaking the fatty acids off the glycerin is already done by oxidation. The lye only has the easy job of bonding with the FFAs to form soap molecules.

Oxidized fat is not rancid, but it will have an increasingly higher FFA content than non-oxidized fat. The more FFAs in your fat, the faster the batter will reach trace, all other things being equal. You cannot smell or see when the FFA content is high -- a fat with high FFAs will appear the same as a fat with low FFAs to the everyday observer.

When these free fatty acids break down further into smelly ketones and aldehydes, that's when the fat becomes rancid. It's the smell of these chemicals that defines when the fat is rancid.

Believe it or not, rancid fat does not always have a high FFA content. It's entirely possible that one rancid fat will not accelerate trace, but a second rancid fat will. In other words, the smell of rancidity is not surefire proof that the FFA content is high.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Oxidized fat is not rancid, but it will have an increasingly higher FFA content than non-oxidized fat.

*Hydrolysed fat (hydrolytic rancidity).

Oxygen attacks FA chains next to C=C double bonds (oxidative rancidity: production of hydroperoxides and cross-linking molecules in a complicated chain reaction; subsequent reactions can generate hydroxy-, keto and aldehyde groups; some of the resultant compounds are smelly).
FFAs are the result of water cleaving ester bonds (hydrolytic rancidity). Action of oxygen does eventually liberate acids too, but these aren't free fatty acids, but fragments of the original FA chains.

In practice, one wants to avoid both hydrolytic rancidity (keep oils dry, don't use frying oils, etc.; limited shelf life of dairy butter), and oxidative rancidity (avoid air contact, add antioxidants to interrupt the peroxide chain reaction).

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

It's less about rancidity and more about the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the fat.

A triglyceride fat molecule is made from 4 building blocks -- 3 fatty acid "legs" attached to 1 glycerin "backbone". When a fat molecule reacts with oxygen -- in other words, when the fat oxidizes -- one or more of the fatty acids breaks away from the glycerin.

These "loose" fatty acids (aka "free fatty acids" or FFAs) will react almost instantly with lye solution to form soap, because the hardest step of breaking the fatty acids off the glycerin is already done by oxidation. The lye only has the easy job of bonding with the FFAs to form soap molecules.

Oxidized fat is not rancid, but it will have an increasingly higher FFA content than non-oxidized fat. The more FFAs in your fat, the faster the batter will reach trace, all other things being equal. You cannot smell or see when the FFA content is high -- a fat with high FFAs will appear the same as a fat with low FFAs to the everyday observer.

When these free fatty acids break down further into smelly ketones and aldehydes, that's when the fat becomes rancid. It's the smell of these chemicals that defines when the fat is rancid.

Believe it or not, rancid fat does not always have a high FFA content. It's entirely possible that one rancid fat will not accelerate trace, but a second rancid fat will. In other words, the smell of rancidity is not surefire proof that the FFA content is high.

Wow thats so interesting & informative, so appreciate it. This would explain why it reached trace so darn fast regardless all I knew to do. Now im thinking if I would of decreased the lard% I probably could of fixed the situation? at least the fast trace' not the rancidity? Now Another thought cause we have Hot Summers & my lard wasn't refrigerated that could of caused the lard to go rancid?.
This soaping is so scientific' Much Thx

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

*Hydrolysed fat (hydrolytic rancidity).

Oxygen attacks FA chains next to C=C double bonds (oxidative rancidity: production of hydroperoxides and cross-linking molecules in a complicated chain reaction; subsequent reactions can generate hydroxy-, keto and aldehyde groups; some of the resultant compounds are smelly).
FFAs are the result of water cleaving ester bonds (hydrolytic rancidity). Action of oxygen does eventually liberate acids too, but these aren't free fatty acids, but fragments of the original FA chains.

In practice, one wants to avoid both hydrolytic rancidity (keep oils dry, don't use frying oils, etc.; limited shelf life of dairy butter), and oxidative rancidity (avoid air contact, add antioxidants to interrupt the peroxide chain reaction).

You're scientific information given freely is so appreciated. Thank you

 

[KiwiMoose]

You're scientific information given freely is so appreciated. Thank you

Oh - I thought it was a foreign language

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Oh - I thought it was a foreign language

Chuffed? Faffing around? Darn tootin' foreign languages!

 

[Cheeky Goat]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

 

[Megan]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

I use SG. The most important thing to remember is to dissolve the SG in water BEFORE adding the lye because it will not go into solution after.
SG does not affect super fat so no need to worry there.

It's been so long since I used citric, I can't remember off the top of my head on that one but I think I did that first as well. DeAnna's classic bells website has a great page on CA and the calculations you need to figure out extra lye needed if you decide to go that route. Citric acid, Citrus juice | Soapy Stuff

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Thank you @DeeAnna and @ResolvableOwl for the information on FFAs accelerating saponification. I had read about oil quality & FFAs causing “instant” saponification recently, but couldn’t recall where. I am bookmarking your posts!

 

[mcdougal7]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

I make my soap with a full water replacement of vinegar. White distilled vinegar is what I usually use so as not to affect the colors, but ACV can be used if color isn't a concern. For me it works quite well for reducing soap scum, and seems to make a harder bar. I do adjust the amount of lye by multiplying the total grams of vinegar by .0357 (actually I use .0333 for a little leeway), which is just a few grams of lye. It comes to approximately 1 gram of lye for every 28 grams of vinegar. Vinegar does have a hotter reaction with lye, so it should be added slowly and carefully.

 

[mcdougal7]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

 

[linne1gi]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

I'm impressed by the "upstairs shower", since I know you live in Florida and there are so few houses with an "upstairs"! I use citric acid (been doing this about 5 years) to every soap I make along with EDTA. I am almost finished with the EDTA and then I will go to Sodium Gluconate which I understand is better for the environment. There is a huge difference when using both citric acid and EDTA.

 

[dibbles]

@Cheeky Goat I use sodium citrate - no need to adjust the lye. I use it at 1.5% of oil weight. I warm some of the batch water - in your case probably goat milk - about twice the weight of the sodium citrate and stick blend it into my oils before adding the lye. Here is a link to DeeAnna's article Citrate | Soapy Stuff

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Sodium gluconate, trisodium citrate, tetrasodium EDTA don't need to be compensated wrt lye. Easiest to use for the math shy.

In case of free citric acid: Each %TOW increases superfat by VERY ROUGHLY 4% of oils. Say, you're aiming at 6% SF and 1%TOW CA, tell the soap calculator to use 2% superfat.
(The 4% guesstimate depends on the used oils)

 

[linne1gi]

Sodium gluconate, trisodium citrate, tetrasodium EDTA don't need to be compensated wrt lye. Easiest to use for the math shy.

In case of free citric acid: Each %TOW increases superfat by VERY ROUGHLY 4% of oils. Say, you're aiming at 6% SF and 1%TOW CA, tell the soap calculator to use 2% superfat.
(The 4% guesstimate depends on the used oils)

The math is actually pretty easy for citric acid. I use 2%. That’s of the oils, which I measure in grams. So for 1000 grams of oils times 2% = 20 grams, then just multiply by 0.624 to get the amount of NaOH - 1000X.02=20X.624=12.48. So 20 grams of citric and 12 grams of NaOH.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I switched to sodium citrate because I was getting crystals on the top of my soap when I was using citric acid at as low as 1% of total oil weight. i have no issues with crystals now, using sodium citrate at 1.5% of total oil weight. At that percentage, it’s less than I could use for curtailing soap scum, but it working fine, even with my hard water.

 

[linne1gi]

I switched to sodium citrate because I was getting crystals on the top of my soap when I was using citric acid at as low as 1% of total oil weight. i have no issues with crystals now, using sodium citrate at 1.5% of total oil weight. At that percentage, it’s less than I could use for curtailing soap scum, but it working fine, even with my hard water.

Hm, I wonder why you got crystals? I have never seen a crystal (on top of my soap) and I use a much higher percentage. Always 2% and sometimes up to 2.5%.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%?

My base level is at 0. 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke.

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf.

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.

I use sodium gluconate 5% of total batch weight. I dissolve SG in a little distilled water then add it to my oils right before my lye is added.