Soapers Not Using Chelators.

[Rsapienza]

I have only ever heard of chelators on this forum. I didn't use one for a few years and the only time I experienced DOS was when a bar or 2 touched some metal. I have about 3 shoe boxes under my bed full of thinner soap slices that are anywhere from 1-3 years old, (I used to save a slice of every batch I made) and no DOS. After reading all of the different posts on here regarding chelators, I do use one now. I do not have any issue with my soaps, but I do not have hard water either. I know many of my family members up north do, and I'm sure some customers do as well. I certainly wouldn't want to turn someone off of handmade soaps due to soap scum.
I have never had anyone even look at my labels...LOL

 

[AAShillito]

I've stumbled onto HSCG (Handcrafted Soap & Cosmetics Guild) website searching for soap info' which led me to viewing other Soaper's Websites, I enjoy seeing what other soap crafters use in their soap & their artistic uniqueness each soaper has, it's all so interesting. Yes i'm a self proclaimed soap nerd .

What struck me a bit odd the websites I looked at total of 4 "none" of them used any form of a chelator in their soaps, either they didn't list it as a ingredient or just don't use it, I can't imagine all of them not using any at all? so strange, almost like it's the norm not to use a chelator of any kind, However I saw some nicely designed websites & soap's. The average cost of a bar of soap is $9.00 ea. As much work that is involved creating soap & cost of materials, sounds pretty reasonable to me.!

I'm so afraid of the dreaded orange spots ( DOS ) I use a chelator religiously 'sodium gluconate' the thought of my soap getting DOS on a soap i've given away makes me want to cringe, Truly! lol .

I think I close on that note' Night nite soaping family.

I feel the same way. The fear of DOS ( after all my hard work and cost of materials) has led to putting sodium gluconate in every batch.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Are you perhaps thinking of the cosmetic label regulations in the EU/UK/EEA? We who live here have to abide exactly by what you are saying. But after reading about the rules and regs of America you are way more free when it comes to making soap, and the labeling.

(But we also have to get safety assessments also, but that is not the topic here)

Not to worry if your on topic or off topic, your free to express your thoughts. its great when so many chime in. . Thank you

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

As noted by @DeeAnna...no I don't. I may not know everything there is to know about soap making (hello fatty acids), but I have done extensive research on the legalities and requirements of making and selling soap in the US; not only on a federal level, but also as it applies to my state, county and city. My soap labels meet all requirements right down to the size of the font.

Now my labels for my Lotion Bars and Bath Salts are more extensive, but then again, they fall under Cosmetic rules as opposed to True Soap rules.

Oh great point in regards to " Cosmetic Rules"

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have very hard water and no soap scum problems at all, which I attribute to using a chelator (eta: and I use a low superfat of 2-3%). When it comes to keeping DOS at bay, I feel a bit less in control. I’ve had minor cases of DOS that I could link back to using cheap grocery store olive oil or a soap touching silver. I’ve also had two cases of extensive DOS development in soap despite the addition of ROE and a chelator. In both cases the soap was exposed to bright light for weeks or more. I am now fanatical about keeping my curing soap in the dark. I also started buying oils from the major suppliers that cater to soap makers and adjusted my recipes to reduce the risks of DOS.

As a group, soap makers with high volume sales probably buy most of their oils from major suppliers, which should reduce the risk of getting a bad batch of oil. I also see a fair number of ingredient lists that are high in CO and palm, which are not especially prone to developing DOS. I also wonder if any of these soap makers are stashing soap away for a year or more .

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I have very hard water and no soap scum problems at all, which I attribute to using a chelator. When it comes to keeping DOS at bay, I feel a bit less in control. I’ve had minor cases of DOS that I could link back to using cheap grocery store olive oil or a soap touching silver. I’ve also had two cases of extensive DOS development in soap despite the addition of ROE and a chelator. In both cases the soap was exposed to bright light for weeks or more. I am now fanatical about keeping my curing soap in the dark. I also started buying oils from the major suppliers that cater to soap makers and adjusted my recipes to reduce the risks of DOS.

As a group, soap makers with high volume sales probably buy most of their oils from major suppliers, which should reduce the risk of getting a bad batch of oil. I also see a fair number of ingredient lists that are high in CO and palm, which are not especially prone to developing DOS. I also wonder if any of these soap makers are stashing soap away for a year or more .

Yes... a lot to take consider on the pros & cons.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I've never added chelators or ROE to my soap. I am tempted to add ROE but have not found any reason to do so thus far.
I do sell, and have regular customers now, plus I use all the soap myself and some of it is over a year old and seem to have no problem with DOS. I have had three batches go dossy in my three years of soaping and they seemed to go dossy early in their lives, rather than later. To this day I don't know why it has happened because they haven't been treated any differently to my other soaps.

You've got a great recipe' nothing like return customers to prove it.

 

[user 49910]

@Peachy Clean Soap -- I use ROE, rosemary oleoresin extract, as my antioxidant.

@SoapLover1 -- My personal opinion is exactly same as yours, but our opinion is only that -- opinion.

In the USA, plain soap as defined by the FDA does NOT require an ingredients list at all. If you do provide an ingredients list, it is lawful to provide a list that is incomplete or says "may contain" or "saponified fats of".

You can discuss the wisdom of providing a complete and correct ingredients list, but don't insist the law requires all ingredients to be listed for plain soap, because the law does not require this.

An excellent resource for understanding the US rules for labeling is Marie Gale. Or go direct to the FDA and CPSC and read the regulations there.

A link to Marie Gale's page for : Ingredient Declarations for Soap (US Only)

An excerpt from that page link above:

Soap: What Laws & Regs Apply?
The first thing to determine for the soap is whether it is a cosmetic or not. Soap is a cosmetic by default because it is applied to the human body to improve appearance or cleanse. However, the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act definition of a cosmetic exempts soap. Confusing? A bit.

Luckily, the FDA regulations clarify when a soap is exempt. To be exempt, it must:

• mainly consist of the alkali salt of fatty acids (be a lye/oil soap)
• get it’s cleansing properties from the alkali salt of fatty acids (not added detergents)
• be marketed only as “soap”
• have no claims that it will have any cosmetic benefits (moisturizing, exfoliating, etc)

If the soap is a cosmetic, then all cosmetic laws and regulations apply. The ingredient declaration is required and it must meet the requirements in the FDA regulations. Color additives are limited to those approved for use in cosmetics.

But if it’s NOT a cosmetic?

Non-Cosmetic Soap
Also called soap that is exempt from the definition of a cosmetic, exempt soap, or (slightly incorrectly) true soap.

The ingredient declaration is not required. The cosmetic regulations concerning them do not apply. There are no restrictions on the ingredient naming or other details.

 

[Celestial1124]

I'm still fairly new to soapmaking (and am pretty picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products) but after a few batches of my own soap, as well as using other locally handcrafted soap, the soap buildup on wash cloths especially, is enough to make me search out a chelator to use in my next batch, or a soap maker that uses one. Our water is hard enough that the soap is just hard to get out (even with tweaking my laundry habits to help) and also builds up quickly on the shower floor. No issues when I go back to the kirks I used before soap making (so drying though!).

 

[SoapDaddy70]

I didn't use any chelators for the first 40 batches of soap I made. I went on vacation down to the Outer Banks and brought a bunch of soap for everyone to use. To my horror, most if not all of the soap behaved so differently in this beach house then it did in my Long Island shower. It was gooey and gross after it sat in the sink and/or shower. If I ever plan on selling my soap I would be doing a disservice to future customers if I did not account for different water situations throughout the country. I use .5% Food Grade Sodium Gluconate and .5% Food Grade Tetrasodium EDTA in my last few batches. I do understand the issue with throwing such "chemically" sounding ingredients on your label but if I bought soap and it turned to a gooey mess I would be pretty upset that the soapmaker was not knowledgeable enough to account for all different types of water situations.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products

You can replace some of your lye water with lemon juice as a source of chelator. Doesn't sound like a weird chemical IMHO.

ETA: some math is needed, though. And don't panic when the lemon juice turns bright orange-red after adding the NaOH, it'll turn pale again during saponification.

 

[Orebma]

You can replace some of your lye water with lemon juice as a source of chelator. Doesn't sound like a weird chemical IMHO.

ETA: some math is needed, though. And don't panic when the lemon juice turns bright orange-red after adding the NaOH, it'll turn pale again during saponification.

Oooh that is great news. I zested a couple of kilos of lemons and couldn't think what to do with the fruit so froze some of the juice I squeezed. Handy!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I'm still fairly new to soapmaking (and am pretty picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products) but after a few batches of my own soap, as well as using other locally handcrafted soap, the soap buildup on wash cloths especially, is enough to make me search out a chelator to use in my next batch, or a soap maker that uses one. Our water is hard enough that the soap is just hard to get out (even with tweaking my laundry habits to help) and also builds up quickly on the shower floor. No issues when I go back to the kirks I used before soap making (so drying though!).

But have you considered reducing your superfat to reduce build-up?

 

[Cat&Oak]

Okay you guys have me convinced. Just ordered some sodium citrate. Thanks to this great community I learn something new every day.

 

[earlene]

I beg to differ that chelators are rarely used by soapmakers who are not members of this forum. (Or maybe I am misreading some of the posts in this thread.) And that the general public has no clue about chelators. That is to suggest that the general public are poorly uneducated or clueless people. There are plenty of people in the general population aware of chelators and how they are used in everyday life. You may not think you know them, but some of you are & were among them even before joining this Forum. If the information is new to you, good. But it wasn't new to all of us.

Chelators have been used by the soapmaking industry for a long time and in fact, several contain chelators. Dial contains Citric Acid. Ivory contains EDTA. Dove contains EDTA. Safeguard contains EDTA. Lava contains tetrasodium etidronate. Kirkland soap contains tetrasodium etidronate. The list goes on.

The use of ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) or other antioxidants in combination with (or without) various chelators to preserve oils/prevent rancidity and reduce soap scum has been going on for a very long time. Not only have they been used a long time in soap, but also in food products.

Sure some folks believe these ingredients are unsafe, and don't want them, and that's fine. They don't have to if that is their choice.

But they are used based on scientific findings of how they work. And I for one, hate soap scum build-up in my sinks, bathtubs, showers and water pipes. I can easily tell the difference when I use soap that do not contain them by the very visible soap scum that shows up immediately in use. And that build-up is visible when pulling hair out of a drain, too. Just total yucky stuff. Sorry, that may be too graphic, but it really is ugly what builds up inside the drainage pipes underneath sinks, so I prefer soap with additives to prevent/delay that build-up.

 

[LynetteO]

Okay you guys have me convinced. Just ordered some sodium citrate. Thanks to this great community I learn something new every day.

You won’t be disappointed. I just tried my 1st test sliver of 1st loaf with sodium Citrate added & I could tell/see the difference in bubbles!

 

[Cat&Oak]

You won’t be disappointed. I just tried my 1st test sliver of 1st loaf with sodium Citrate added & I could tell/see the difference in bubbles!

Ooooo I'm excited! Getting ready to do my winter line so I will keep you posted

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

A link to Marie Gale's page for : Ingredient Declarations for Soap (US Only)

An excerpt from that page link above:

Thx for you link

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I beg to differ that chelators are rarely used by soapmakers who are not members of this forum. (Or maybe I am misreading some of the posts in this thread.) And that the general public has no clue about chelators. That is to suggest that the general public are poorly uneducated or clueless people. There are plenty of people in the general population aware of chelators and how they are used in everyday life. You may not think you know them, but some of you are & were among them even before joining this Forum. If the information is new to you, good. But it wasn't new to all of us.

Chelators have been used by the soapmaking industry for a long time and in fact, several contain chelators. Dial contains Citric Acid. Ivory contains EDTA. Dove contains EDTA. Safeguard contains EDTA. Lava contains tetrasodium etidronate. Kirkland soap contains tetrasodium etidronate. The list goes on.

The use of ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) or other antioxidants in combination with (or without) various chelators to preserve oils/prevent rancidity and reduce soap scum has been going on for a very long time. Not only have they been used a long time in soap, but also in food products.

Sure some folks believe these ingredients are unsafe, and don't want them, and that's fine. They don't have to if that is their choice.

But they are used based on scientific findings of how they work. And I for one, hate soap scum build-up in my sinks, bathtubs, showers and water pipes. I can easily tell the difference when I use soap that do not contain them by the very visible soap scum that shows up immediately in use. And that build-up is visible when pulling hair out of a drain, too. Just total yucky stuff. Sorry, that may be too graphic, but it really is ugly what builds up inside the drainage pipes underneath sinks, so I prefer soap with additives to prevent/delay that build-up.

You didn't miss read my opening thought & post, Found it interesting 4 different soapers did not have them listed in their ingredients. Now who knows if they don't use them or don't list them?. Interesting to say the least which brought up some great content here on the subject.
Thx for your input as-well, Very informative.

 

[SideDoorSoaps]

I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O I've looked at lots of other local soapmakers and I have not noticed any of them using any kind of chelator or antioxidant in their ingredients. Maybe they aren't listing them. Idk... In the last 12 years that we've been soaping, only a handful of batches have DOS and most recently just about all the soap I made with hemp oil DOS'd. I have one bar from the first CP batch in our bathroom and it definitely has DOS but it doesn't smell. Just very orange. I have buckets of soap scraps/ends from all the batches of soap I've made (and it's extensive) that I rummage through every few months to check out. My youngest son also likes to carve the soap up to occupy himself when I'm soaping.

I definitely loved the difference of the sudsing and less soap scum in the shower. We recently installed a water softener system and there hasn't been any soap scum with the non-citric acid soaps. I still use citric acid in my shave soap because the lather is just awesome. The aloe I was using in some batches also has citric acid and sodium gluctonate in it.